RLM 04 & RLM 27 Messerschmitt Bf 109F-4 W.nr.7420. 9./JG 52. Oblt. Hermann Graf.

[Jamoliva]

Greetings!

Graf's F-4 has many photos and it seems that the yellow on the fuselage band is lighter than the group markings. The cowling of the machine is also fully yellow as the spinner and the tips of the wings underneath. The question is which ones were RLM 04? Looking at the photos of the aircrafts of the unit, the only part that I am sure is that the Staffel used the colors interchangeably and that the fuselage band on Graf's F-4 is probably RLM 27. But what about the other yellow parts? RLM 04 or 27? If you could share your opinion, I appreciate it.

 

[Crimea_River]

Wayne Little may have something to offer.

 

[Wurger]

Here is the RLM 04 and 27 and below there is the grey representation of these. It is clearly seen that the RLM 04 was a little bit darker colours than the RLM 27. The slightly difference in the tone between these paints can be noticed in all pics above. However the darker appearance of the yellow nose might be caused by the overheating and dirt that affect the part of a plane in time. Additionally the tone of the yellow may depend on number of layers , the type and colour of the background it was applied on . Also it could be the light trick because the tone of the tops of the engine cowling and the air intake to the supercharger in the first image goes to the lighter one rather. Well.. IMHO both the band on the fuselage and the engine cowling could be painted with the RLM 27 while the "1" digit and the group sign with the RLM04. However, it should be kept in mind that some markings could be applied earlier while the other ones later and not necessarily with the same paint.

 

[mjfur]

Have you looked for color photo's of JG51, perhaps another a/c will help with your answer?

 

[Wurger]

Yes that's a good idea. However I doubt these exist.

Here a B&W shot I found via the net. It's a Yellow 2. As you may notice the yellow used for the "2" seems to be slightly darker than the yellow engine cowling and the rudder.

And here another shot and a kind of comparision. It seems that both the digit "6" and the engine cowling were of yellow . I have cut out the part of the number and moved on the background that is the engine cowling. It may be noticed that the tone of it seems to be slightly darker that the background.

the pic source: Jagdgeschwader 51-JG51

 

[Jamoliva]

Thank you all. I appreciate the information. As I was looking I came across some color photos from JG52. They seem actual color photos but I am not sure. And considering the photography technology in the 1940s I also do not know how reliable the colors on them could be. But here are some:

Source: The Bf109 In Wartime Color- Ostfront

Source: Bf 109F Jagdgeschwader 52 based in Russia 1942

Source: Third Reich Color Pictures: Messerschmitt Bf 109 in Color

 

[Wurger]

And here the next B&W shot of the JG51 Bf 109Fs. Please note that the engine cowl of the foreground kite is of the yellow applied quite freshly. The same colour tone you may notice on the bottom part of the rudder of the background Bf 109F. Contrary to that her number "3" is darker though. It may suggest that the number had been painted before the yellow markings on the engine cowl and rudders were applied.

the source: Messerschmitt Bf 109F of JG51 | World War Photos

 

[Airframes]

Note that the yellow used for I.D. colours on cowlings etc, was normally a distemper-type, "washable" paint, and would tend to be slightly paler, and not as "deep" yellow as the "real" paint used for fuselage numbers. It could, and very likely did, vary in density and tone also, depending on how it had been mixed and applied.

 

[Wurger]

True.

Here two quite well know shots of Bf 109F of the JG3. The "Yellow 4" seems to be slightly darker than the yellow band on the tail. But it may be a kind of light trick because of the difference in the size of the painted area, the lack of the black outline and the type of the coat.

Contrary to the kite above, the Fridrich below seems to have the "6" and the fuselage band , painted with the same colour while the bar is darker. And again the tone of the paint seems to depend on the size of the area it was applied on. A note.. please note that both planes are very clean and their samo and ID markings were nicely applied.

the pic source: Messerschmitt Bf109

 

[GrumpyOldCrewChief]

I haven't seen a mention of the type of B&W film used. Different types will give different "grey" values to colors, even the "same" colors, at times...

 

[Wurger]

Do you mean the orthochromatic film? Yes, in the case the yellow looks like very dark grey and sometimes almost black colour. What is more , the tone of the yellow is not too much important for the kind of film. Each of the yellow tone looks almost the same. Below the BF 109F taken with the kind of B&W film. Both the yellow engine cowling, the triangle below the cap of the fuel filler and the rudder are of the same very dark tone. The same effect we can noticed in pics of RAF planes and the yellow ring of the RAF roundel. IMHO, using of a filter more affect the tone of colours than the kind of film. Eg.. using of the yellow filter makes the colour looking like white and the red one is lighter than it can be noticed in pics taken with the standard film used by amateurs.

 

[Jamoliva]

Do you mean the orthochromatic film? Yes, in the case the yellow looks like very dark grey and sometimes almost black colour. What is more , the tone of the yellow is not too much important for the kind of film. Each of the yellow tone looks almost the same. Below the BF 109F taken with the kind of B&W film. Both the yellow engine cowling, the triangle below the cap of the fuel filler and the rudder are of the same very dark tone. The same effect we can noticed in pics of RAF planes and the yellow ring of the RAF roundel. IMHO, using of a filter more affect the tone of colours than the kind of film. Eg.. using of the yellow filter makes the colour looking like white and the red one is lighter than it can be noticed in pics taken with the standard film used by amateurs.

View attachment 623193

Good example! Is this Mölders' aircraft?

 

[Wurger]

Yes it is.

And here the Hawker Tornado prototypes. The differences because of the kind of film or using of a filter can be noticed...

The HG641 ... the pic was taken with the orthochromatic film. Please notice the tones of the yellow and red colour.

The HG641 ... the pic was taken with the yellow filter. Please see the yellow and red colour again.

The P5224 ... the pic taken with the orthochromatic film.

The P5224 ... the pics were taken without the yellow filter. Please, notice that the red is almost as dark as the blue while the yellow is darker than the white.

the pic source: the Internet.

 

[Bozothenutter]

I put this in another thread on the 109D-1 with the legion Condor, so it all about RLM02 and RLM63.
But I hope it shows the effect of filters used with B&W film


been thinking about colour.
not a lab tech, but I used to do B&W photography.
It is almost a standard that a B&W photographer uses a coloured filter, usually a yellow or orange filter to raise contrast a bit.
Even more so in the days of orthochromatic film.

so first I found these: Aviation of Japan 日本の航空史: Notice of Update ~ RLM 02 & RLM 63 Graus

The Mölders image was straight converted to greyscale, but maybe I should have removed the yellow cast first?

then did a simple conversion to grayscale

Then selected each of the colours, increased the red channel +50 and the converted to grayscale.
so the background gray was untouched.

The same but now with the magenta channel

Again, but now with the yellow channel

And to finish of, I did it again, but now with the yellow +25 and the red +25

I have no idea if this is scientific or not, I probably should have used the colour profile of contemporary Agfa film to convert to grayscale.
I hope what I did makes sense, if not fire away!

PS. I had to re-upload the images, as a straight copy/paste didn't work.

 

[Wayne Little]

RLM 04 would be the primary Yellow used, why the fuselage band is lighter is odd, but possible 27 may have been used at an earlier stage or simply a bit of fading of the the 04, however earlier photo's at least 2 months earlier also show the lighter Band Yellow colour contrasting with the darker different style 1 and gruppe bar.
So it certainly gives cause to being 27 rather than 04 as a distinct possibility.
As Terry said mix and density can have a bearing on final colour.
The majority of the Yellow used on the Eastern front for theatre markings was 04 and well applied and not a distemper application for easy removal.
It started out as narrow and broad bands on the fuselage extending to upper and or lower wingtips, cowlings and spinners and sometimes rudders, then as time progressed the Spinners cowlings and rudders were gradually camouflaged over to reduce their visibility.
On some JG52 aircraft they painted over the cowling and fuselage bands and then reapplied Yellow mottle spots as a toned down version of the Yellow, most renditions of this show the colour as light Grey or Lt. Blue, but it was in fact yellow.

When I do my F-4 Yellow 1 I will use straight yellow for the band and then add a drop or two of Red to give the deeper richer contrasting 04 colour.

 

[Jamoliva]

Happy New Year! I did not want to create a new thread for my question. So, I plan to start the paint job for this model now. Three questions I wanted ask and see what you would do:

1. The heart emblem: I see that only image 1 has the emblem in the post #1 and it kind of seems to be put there later but I am not sure. However, images 3 and 4 do not show the emblem. Would you put the heart emblem if you were building this model?

2. Victory marks: I only have photographs showing the port side of the aircraft with the victory marks. Even the photograph taken in 1972 in his home has the port side of the rudder (apparently Graf had this rudder with 104 victory marks in his possession). Also, (of course not a photographic evidence but...) Claes Sundin's profile on his book More Luftwaffe Fighter Profiles shows the starboard side with no victory marks. Would you put the victory marks on both sides or only on the port side?

3. The mottling on the rudder: It seems from the photos that this aircraft probably had the classic RLM 02/74/75 mottling on its fuselage sides. However, rudder seems to have a group of mottles that looks darker. Could it be RLM 70? As I read, it seems sometimes RLM 70 was also used for mottling but irregularly in the field. So, would you use RLM 74 or RLM 70 for the rudder for the darker mottling (also please see image 2 in my first post)?

Thank you very much for your opinions and help already! At this point, I am considering going with no heart emblem, only port side, and RLM 74. All the best!

 

[Wurger]

IMHO ...

Ad 1. As memo serves , the "Red Heart" became the emblem of the 9 Staffel in May 1942. If you want to replicate the Bf 109F-4 appearance before the date the badge shouldn't be applied there. But if it is going to be after the May 1942 the "red heart" should be correct there.

Ad 2. I would apply the victory markings on the port side of the rudder only.

Ad 3. First of all I would like to pay your attention to the number of the victory markings. There is more of them than in the pics you posted in the first post above. It may indicate the rudder either could be repainted or could be of another plane. Let's assume that's the same one in both cases. The RLM 74 was quite dark colour and just applied was looking dark. What is more it seems that the colour was getting the dark tone in time. Also the place and the light conditions ( in the case the sunlight and the artificial lighting ) the pics were taken with, could make the trick. Additionally if the rudder was stored at Graf's home it could be preserved often to remove the dust for instance. This could make its colours looking darker and slightly glossy and could affect the appearance of the coat. To sum up .. I would stay with the RLM74 than the RLM70 rather.

So .. just my three cents.