Rn vs IJN (1 Viewer)

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

A gun overheating too much from continuous fire is the obvious outcome. That is why we didn't. It was fired in bursts as it
should be. It didn't jam because it was kept in good condition.

They will still overheat (and jam) without continuous fire. Which either you already know, if you are even vaguely familiar with machine guns, or you don't know and probably ought to realize by now.

 

[WARSPITER]

I do know and I was there.

 

[Shortround6]

Some of this thread has devolved to the position that that Japanese were equal or superior to the British in technical matters in the late 30s and early 40s and we have veered off into tank land to try to prove it. In the area of anti-tank guns the Japanese were introducing the 47mm in the Spring of 1942. They had captured a few Russian 45mm AT guns in the late 30s (1939?) and had basically copied them with the change from 45mm to 47mm because the Japanese already had 47mm barrel making and shell/projectile making machinery from old navy guns.
In April of 1942 the British were making 1500 6pdrs a month and increasing production.

In fact the first production 17pdrs were built in April of 1942. but production of carriages was slow.

The 6pdr had been designed in 1938-39 but had to wait for financing and factory space.

I can't seem to find the Japanese superiority.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I never said they couldn't. 2 pounder was a good AT gun. 6 pounder was even better. It's just damn near suicidal to use a tank against Japanese troops without HE. They got away with it a few times with enough infantry protection around them, but it's not that simple. Infantry can be cleared away with a little light mortar fire. Or a few machine gun bursts. Then the tank is on it's own. Anyway, it's just one of those myths that a ton of British guys believe, just like a lot of American guys think we would have won Vietnam if not for x.y.z...

Well, of course you need HE against infantry.

Or you could use your own infantry, and keep the tanks with their AP around to prevent Japanese tanks from rolling you over. That's probably what I'd do.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I do know and I was there.

Ok tough guy. I call bullshit. I take back trying to be nice about it.

 

[WARSPITER]

I don't care.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Some of this thread has devolved to the position that that Japanese were equal or superior to the British in technical matters in the late 30s and early 40s and we have veered off into tank land to try to prove it. In the area of anti-tank guns the Japanese were introducing the 47mm in the Spring of 1942. They had captured a few Russian 45mm AT guns in the late 30s (1939?) and had basically copied them with the change from 45mm to 47mm because the Japanese already had 47mm barrel making and shell/projectile making machinery from old navy guns.
In April of 1942 the British were making 1500 6pdrs a month and increasing production.

In fact the first production 17pdrs were built in April of 1942. but production of carriages was slow.

The 6pdr had been designed in 1938-39 but had to wait for financing and factory space.

I can't seem to find the Japanese superiority.

Maybe not 'superiority' - that has never been my argument all along. My argument is that I don't see "inferiority".

My point on the tanks, as just one of many convolutions of this argument, is that the Japanese were not such pushovers in this area compared to the British. In Malaya, the British had some tanks but they didn't think tanks could operate in the jungle. The Japanese proved them wrong. So it's not just the (obvious, glaring) liability and failure in tank design by the British by not making HE shells for their guns, (in spite of it being a major problem for them in the Western Desert and costing tens of thousands of British and Commonwealth lives). The Japanese seem to have been well ahead of the British in tank warfare in Malaya, beat the American tanks in the Philippines, and their land army in general owned the British in Burma as well.

But lets take this moment to back up a little and review.

Carrier War
Japanese fighters (A6M) are significantly more effective than the British carrier fighters (Fulmars, Rocs, Sea Hurricanes) and significantly out-range them.
Japanese have seaplane fighters (A6M2-N) which are also (probably) superior to British carrier fighters
Japanese carrier strike aircraft are also vastly superior (D3A and B5N vs Skua and Swordfish) And better (?) air-launched torpedoes (?)
Japanese aircraft carriers carry more aircraft (60-70 vs 40-50)
Japanese land based strike aircraft have long range and can sink enemy ships in daylight
British have radar and some aircraft that can fly strikes at night with radar (Swordfish) albeit at very short range
British have Wellingtons which can also drop torpedoes at night and have very long range
British carriers have armored decks
British have Spitfire to protect airfields and Beaufighter to harass shipping
British ships have more AA and have radar guided AA and / or air search radar

Surface Sea War
Japanese have the largest and most powerful battleshps in the world (Yamato and Musashi)
Japanese have (arguably) more modern battleships and battle cruisers, and better cruisers
Japanese light cruisers are very effective torpedo platforms
Japanese have seaplane tenders and seaplane cruisers
Japanese ship-launched torpedoes with twice the range of the British and much greater speed
Japanese have superior night training and optics
British have King George the Fifth BB
British have radar
British torpedoes work (unlike the American ones)
British have less-flash powder (unlike the Americans)
British have more ships overall, especially CL and DE / E

Submarine War
Japanese probably better sub-launched torpedoes (I actually haven't checked this)
Japanese submarines have longer range
British have particularly good submarine crews
British have superior ASW on their ships
British have more ASW via aircraft
British have radar

Land War
Japanese tanks have HE capability
Japanese Army is unusually fanatical and creative
Japanese resoundingly beat the British in land battles in 1942 (in the real world)
British tanks have better AT capability
British have better small arms
British have more artillery

Extra Factors
Japanese have extra highly trained pilots in the beginning
Japanese have ultra high disciplined troops who don't surrender etc.
Japanese are grossly underestimated by all the Western powers
British have much better encryption / cipher / decipher capability
British have more air sea rescue etc. capability
British probably get at least some help from the US, and probably also French and Dutch
British for sure have a lot of help from the Australians

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I don't care.

Right back at you

 

[SaparotRob]

Japanese have seaplane fighters (A6M2-N) which are also (probably) superior to British carrier fighters

That never occurred to me.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Small niggle: if the Japanese have the Yamatos, the Brits would have Howe and PoW as well.

 

[SaparotRob]

I was trying to remember the names of the other KGVs, besides PoW. All I could remember was Anson and Amnesia.

 

[Shortround6]

But lets take this moment to back up a little and review.

We seem to be a little sloppy with both the time line and the actual conditions.
Granted we are juggling several scenarios.

So lets try to isolate a few things.

Carrier War
Japanese fighters (A6M) are significantly more effective than the British carrier fighters (Fulmars, Rocs, Sea Hurricanes) and significantly out-range them.
If the balloon does not go up until Dec 1941 Or give or take a few weeks) the Rocks are history. Even the British were not going to keep them around for a year and half. (last Roc Delivered in Aug 1940. A lot depends on what was going on in Europe, or not going on. Lots of butterflies. Better Sea Hurricanes?
Japanese have seaplane fighters (A6M2-N) which are also (probably) superior to British carrier fighters.
First A6M2-N prototype flew Dec 7 1941. Enough to equip a squadron show up when?
Japanese carrier strike aircraft are also vastly superior (D3A and B5N vs Skua and Swordfish) And better (?) air-launched torpedoes (?)
Also assumes that the British retain existing aircraft later than than really did. Skua's disappear from service in the summer of 1941. Several Squadrons of Albacores are in use in the summer of 1941. Torpedoes are better because they are Japanese?
torpedo......................warhead..............speed...............range
British XII......................388lbs....................40kts..............1500yds
Japanese mod1.........331lbs..................41-43...............2000m
Japanese Mod 2.......452Lbs..................."..."...................."..."
Note that the Nell's carried the mod 1s
Japanese aircraft carriers carry more aircraft (60-70 vs 40-50)
Japanese land based strike aircraft have long range and can sink enemy ships in daylight
British torpedoes don't work in daylight?
British have radar and some aircraft that can fly strikes at night with radar (Swordfish) albeit at very short range
British have Wellingtons which can also drop torpedoes at night and have very long range
British carriers have armored decks
British have Spitfire to protect airfields and Beaufighter to harass shipping
British ships have more AA and have radar guided AA and / or air search radar


Surface Sea War
Japanese have the largest and most powerful battleshps in the world (Yamato and Musashi)
Yamato doesn't show up until May of 1942, Musashi doesn't show up until Jan 1943
Japanese have (arguably) more modern battleships and battle cruisers, and better cruisers.
Very arguably, both sides have a very mixed bag of battleships and battle cruisers. Yes the R's are rather doubtful most of the rest, (Repulse aside) can hold their own
Japanese light cruisers are very effective torpedo platforms
And the British light cruisers are not?? Oh, right if, the torpedoes can't reach 0ver 30,000 meters just discount them. Are eight 24in torps worth twelve 21in torps in a close range donnybrook?
Japanese have seaplane tenders and seaplane cruisers
Japanese ship-launched torpedoes with twice the range of the British and much greater speed
Japanese have superior night training and optics
rather depends on the actual experience of the British here.
British have King George the Fifth BB,
In March of 1942 the 3rd KGV went into action
British have radar
British torpedoes work (unlike the American ones)
British have less-flash powder (unlike the Americans)
British have more ships overall, especially CL and DE / E

The Japanese seem to have been well ahead of the British in tank warfare in Malaya, beat the American tanks in the Philippines, and their land army in general owned the British in Burma as well.

And we need to look at circumstances don't we? How well were the troops in Burma trained and how well were they equipped/supplied, on average. Not to mentioned the appalling lack of air cover in Burma.

 

[Shortround6]

Small niggle: if the Japanese have the Yamatos, the Brits would have Howe and PoW as well.

By the time and Musashi shows up the Anson and Howe are already in service.
In fact with an altered time line and a different construction schedule (less repair/construction of merchant ships and escorts) at least a few months could have been shaved off.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I was trying to remember the names of the other KGVs, besides PoW. All I could remember was Anson and Amnesia.

Been there, done that, got ... er, something.

 

[EwenS]

I was trying to remember the names of the other KGVs, besides PoW. All I could remember was Anson and Amnesia.

KGV & PoW
Duke of York accepted for service 1 Nov 1941
Anson completed June 1942
Howe completed August 1942

Yamato completed Dec 1941
Musashi completed Aug 1942

 

[Shortround6]

KGV & PoW
Duke of York accepted for service 1 Nov 1941
Anson completed June 1942
Howe completed August 1942

Yamato completed Dec 1941
Musashi completed Aug 1942

All of the ships took several months to go on first war cruise.
Other wise all 5 would be repeating the PoW first war cruise (against the Bismarck and we know how that went)

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

By the time and Musashi shows up the Anson and Howe are already in service.
In fact with an altered time line and a different construction schedule (less repair/construction of merchant ships and escorts) at least a few months could have been shaved off.

I think Yamato shows up by Jan 42. I'm not sure about Musashi and you may well be right. In any event, the Brits have at least two more modern, radar-equipped BBs than Bill projects And if we're going to 43, the Brits will get Torbeaus for land-based maritime strike, and perhaps Spitfires either aboard flattops or defending shore installations.

My own opinion is that earlier in the war, the Japanese are better off, but as this hypothetical war goes on, the Brit, for many reason, gain advantages that the Japanese don't -- better fighter direction, more new ships, getting the commonwealth resources moving in, so that much like with the USA OTL, Japan needs a quick victory.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

KGV & PoW
Duke of York accepted for service 1 Nov 1941
Anson completed June 1942
Howe completed August 1942

Yamato completed Dec 1941
Musashi completed Aug 1942

That's a far cry from one modern BB and a bunch of oldies. With radar, weather (in SEA a major factor) and to a lesser extent night battles are more promising from the Brit angle.

Look at what DoY did to Scharnhorst in December 43, and Scharnhorst had better armor than any Japanese capital ship except the Yamatos. For the Yamatos, the Brits will be fighting two- or three-on-one (ideally), and even if 14" won't penetrate Yamato belts, those upperworks are getting shot away in a bad-weather/nighttime duel.

 

[Shortround6]

gun size.................British guns....................Japanese guns
16in...........................2048lbs..............................2249lbs
15in...........................1938lbs...............................................
14in...........................1590lbs.............................1485lbs

8in..............................256lbs................................277.5lb
6in XXIII...................112lbs............................................
6in XII.......................100lbs................................100lb (Agano and Kongo)
5.5in........................................................................84lbs (all the old light cruisers and old BBs)

 

[EwenS]

All of the ships took several months to go on first war cruise.
Other wise all 5 would be repeating the PoW first war cruise (against the Bismarck and we know how that went)

After commissioning at the builders yards these ships spent time at Rosyth completing their radar outfits. Note Wiki gives the commissioning dates not completion dates.

So DoY commissioned at John Brown's yard on the Clyde on 20th Aug 1941. She left the yard on 7 Sept for docking downriver for final modifications to hull and rudder. On 9 Sept she left the Clyde to sail to Rosyth where she was was again dry docked between 11 Sept & 17 Oct. During this time her radar outfits were completed. She sailed from Rosyth on 2 Nov on her trials and was not accepted for service from the builders until 10pm on Tuesday 4 Nov while at Scapa Flow. Only then did she begin her RN work up.
Information extracted from Buxton & Johnston "Battleship Duke of York" which used the John Brown shipyard records.

The position was the same for the other ships, which is why I noted the dates I did.

PoW - commissioned on 19 Jan 1941 and was officially declared "complete" on 31 March, but that was by reason of waiving some of the tests on her armament. The last of her main turrets was not accepted from Vickers Armstrong until 27 April. Her full power trials took place at the beginning of May. All these shortcuts were taken because the Admiralty were so desperate to get her to sea.

Howe - commissioned 17 June 1942. 29 Aug was her official completion date after builders trials. Then she began her work up with the RN.

Anson - commissioned 14 April 1942. Her acceptance trials took place towards the end of June. Then in July 1942 she began her RN work up.