Rn vs IJN

[RCAFson]

end of 1941 no European war

CLs....10 Large modern................0
CLs ....18 Small modern...............0
CLs......24 small old......................17

RN 10 large modern = Town class
RN 18 small Modern = 4 x Arethusa and 8 x Leander and ?

The RN would have had ~10 x Dido class and ~10 x Colony class as well.

for 32 smaller Modern light cruisers.

 

[Shortround6]

RN 10 large modern = Town class
RN 18 small Modern = 4 x Arethusa and 8 x Leander and ?

The RN would have had ~10 x Dido class and ~10 x Colony class as well.

for 32 smaller Modern light cruisers.

as of the end of 1941 there would have been 6 Dido's, the other 4 were not completed or were working up in Dec 1941.

Good catch on the Colony's
5 completed and in service by the end of 1941.

We can argue about faster completions due to different conditions in Europe but that is crate of butterflies already.

I will edit the post to reflect the Colony's.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I am going to give him this one. The Nagato's weren't laid down until 1919-1920 so definitely post Jutland.
Just under 3,000 tons of armor added, New boilers slightly upgraded, modified turrets installed with increase elevation and ammo so that ranged increased by 7,500 yds, not that it mattered. The old range was longer than the record (?) held by the British 15in gun for longest ship to ship hit.

Underwhelming. Raw shooting range and useful range are also very different, as you know. Could it hit at that max range? What was Nagato's longest hit? 'Cause Warspite got one at about 26,000 yds.

No radar, crappy AA, lackluster armor even after upgrade. 26 kts downhill if the hull is scraped. This is not modern.

 

[Shortround6]

Underwhelming. Raw shooting range and useful range are also very different, as you know. Could it hit at that range? What was Nagato's longest hit? 'Cause Warspite got one at about 26,000 yds.

No radar, crappy AA, lackluster armor even after upgrade. 26 kts downhill if the hull is scraped. This is not modern.

Without looking into it I would imagine they upgraded the fire control equipment (longer range finders?)

Nobody (KGVs/US 16in) beat the Warspite so yes, there was a big disconnect between raw range and useful range.
However I am counting the Nelson and Rodney and the Warspite, QE and Valiant as "Modern". At least the QE and Valiant got decent if not great AA
the Nagato's were the reason (or one of them) that the British got to build the Nelson and Rodney and since I only used two categories of BB and since the Nagato's are in somewhat different class than the "R"s what do we do with them????

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

However I am counting the Nelson and Rodney and the Warspite, QE and Valiant as "Modern". At least the QE and Valiant got decent if not great AA
the Nagato's were the reason (or one of them) that the British got to build the Nelson and Rodney and since I only used two categories of BB and since the Nagato's are in somewhat different class than the "R"s what do we do with them????

Okay. I think of "modern" as laid down after the treaties were abandoned, not 20-25 year-old ships updated to differing standards.

 

[RCAFson]

as of the end of 1941 there would have been 6 Dido's, the other 4 were not completed or were working up in Dec 1941.

Good catch on the Colony's
5 completed and in service by the end of 1941.

We can argue about faster completions due to different conditions in Europe but that is crate of butterflies already.

I will edit the post to reflect the Colony's.

The Colony class are interesting in that they carried the same armament (12x6in, 8x4in, 6xTTs) as the Town class. Kinda larger than most of the others.

 

[Shortround6]

The Colony class are interesting in that carried the same armament (12x6in, 8x4in, 6xTTs as the Town class. Kinda larger than most of the others.

You are right again. The first 8 got 12 guns, the last 3 got 9 guns and 4 (?) had a turret taken out to end at 9 guns.
Adjusting the post again.

 

[Glider]

I did mention the British air defense radar in my list. I think it would help in terms of attrition, but I don't think it could save Capital ships and Carriers from being sunk by IJN aircraft.

First of all apologies for missing the inclusion of Air Defence radar from your list. The second part I am not so sure about. The Navy were after a naval version of the Spitfire from late 1939 / early 1940 and were only stopped as the BOB was in progress and the development and build would have slowed the production of Spitfires for the RAF which clearly had an absolute priority.
If we are working on the basis that no European war was underway then it is at least probable that the RN would have had 'Seafires' by the end of 1941. That being the case, with Radar warning and direction, plus by the standards of the day serious AA defences gives the RN a good chance of defending themselves against air attack.

The Malta convoys are evidence that the RN could hold their own against air attack

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The limitations of navigation and recon seldom permitted carrier strikes longer than 250nm.

The effective range of the SBD-3 with a 500/1000lb bomb was about 250/280nm. Typical range figures quoted for USN (and sometimes IJN) aircraft are theoretical, no reserve ranges, at low altitude and are not real ranges.

Those ranges - for all the listed aircraft - are calculated in a specific way which we have discussed many times. It's not the case that the range for the British aircraft were calculated one way and the US and Japanese another. It's completely dishonest to pretend otherwise. Actual strike range is always less than 'maximum' range, but the point is that the actual strike range for Swordfish, Albacore, and Skua was much less than that for the SBD and D3A.

I'm pretty sure you know that.

The SBD-3 never carried a bomb load larger than 1000lb from a carrier, and SBD-3s ranged forward had to have their bomb load progressively reduced to 500/2x100 and then to a single 500lb bomb, depending on weather conditions.

No, actually, you are wrong again. They typically carried a 500 lb bomb when on scouting missions. For most carrier strikes such as the ones we have discussed in great detail not that long ago in other threads on here, they carried the 1,000 lb bomb. That is the weapon that typically sunk the larger enemy ships. For example, at Midway, the Hiryu was hit by four 1,000 lb bombs.

Max speed for a TBF-1/1C was 257/254 mph at 12K ft

Nope

effective range was about 250nm

Yes

which was similar to a Albacore with a torpedo and Aux tanks.

No

The TBF-1 couldn't carry DTs and a torpedo when operating from a carrier.

Couldn't carry depth charges and a torpedo? WTF are you talking about

Albacore max speed with a torpedo was ~170mph; 161mph was with 6 x 250lb bombs.

I got news for you. 170 mph is pathetic for a WW2 strike aircraft

The IJN used the D3A-1 until late 1942; max speed was 240mph with a typical 550lb bomb load as the D3A-1 appears to have only carried a single bomb at Coral Sea and Midway.

It was also probably the most accurate dive bomber in the world. Certainly in the top 3. I don't believe anybody, anywhere, ever, made that claim for the Skua. Except maybe you.

The Skua could carry a 500lb bomb and additional wing mounted bombs but typically carried a single 500lb bomb while the Roc could be used as a DB. D4Y and B6N were late 1943/44 aircraft.

I included the D4Y (already active in 1942 as a recon plane) and B6N for comparison with the Barracuda (first combat mission July 1943)

The KB was handicapped because no IJN carrier had a catapult.

I don't think they were actually handicapped. Handicapped would be like, all you have to protect the fleet are Fulmars and Sea Gladiators. All your strike aircraft are biplanes...

The Fulmar II was cleared to carry a 500lb bomb in June 1942 but this was a latent capability that always existed in the Fulmar II. Proposals by Fairey to strengthen Fulmar flaps for use as dive brakes were scuttled by the FAA upon the outbreak of the ETO conflict due to the urgent need for a folding wing carrier fighter.

I would love to see the Fulmar try to be a dive bomber. I would not expect spectacular results...

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Use 'em to attack surface ships. They can carry torpedoes, or suppress EAD, or attack supply lines.

I believe they were not carrying torpedoes until pretty late in the war, though I'm prepared to be wrong about that...

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

You only mentioned the King George for modern BBs. Sorry I didn't read your mind that you meant all of them, but you not mentioning them at all is, at best, quirky, considering how detailed your rundown purported to be.

Well King George is a class, I really just mentioned it to note that the British had some modern battleships.

Optics are easily defeated by weather. They also are less efficient at night-time and long range, depending on moon.

I mean, sometimes. It didn't seem to be a huge problem for the Japanese in most of their surface engagements, including against British ships although I think the big one with the British was in the day. The Japanese did very well during night surface actions, generally. I think I made that pretty clear already.

Because by the middle of 1942, when both Yamato are afloat, the Brits will have five, count 'em five, modern battleships. Put QEs and Rs against Nagatos, and Kongos *snort* and the others. Three moderns on Yamato, two on Musashi.

What's the issue with understanding this?

lol, are you counting Kongos as battleships? Mistake there. 8" of armor ain't a BB. You got 4 WWI hulks against 7, three rebuilt WWI BBs against two, and 5 moderns against 2 Yamatos. The Kongos, as shown OTL, were fragile. One got shot the TF up by Laffey, to be hors d'aircraft the next day.

Kongos may be battlecruisers but they can kill battleships, and what happened to the Hiei at the first naval battle of Guadalcanal could have happened to any ship. The armor protects to a point but at very close range even the light AA guns can cause serious damage.

I think you are grossly overestimating the size and power of the British fleet here, especially in terms of what they would likely have in the Pacific. I certainly don't have any problem understanding your claim, I just don't buy it. I think the RN will have a very hard time against the IJN in a surface battle, though I don't know that for sure and I'd love to see an accurate simulation of it done I'm sure I'd learn something.

What I do know is you are grossly oversimplifying the matchup here. SR is too a little, by focusing kind of exclusively on 1941, but he's close to reality.

Really? Like the Brits didn't sit upon the Straits of Macassar? Like their lines of communication through the IO and back to Suez Canal ran through Japanese waters? This is a silly "point". It's like you haven't looked at a map.

If the Japanese wish to interdict the Brits, they will have break through. to break into the IO. Supply lines for both sides are going to be hard to hit.

Well they did have a little fight in the IO. It did not go well for the British.

As for the torpedoes, sure, they're dangerous. But they're not infallible, they depend upon the crewmen shooting them, and the spotters targeting them. How many hit Washington or SoDak? How many hit their own transports? Yeah, they ain't silver bullets.

I think your bias is painting your vision. Slow down a little and actually think about this.

I don't know if you are biased or not, I have carefully gone through the details and for example, I wasn't sure of all the details when I looked them up (I was basically going by the operational history) but the numbers are pretty stark you seem to be rather casually dismissing the Japanese torpedoes here. I would not be so confident if I was in a warship at night, sailing toward their possible vicinity... Ever read Neptune's Inferno?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

First of all apologies for missing the inclusion of Air Defence radar from your list. The second part I am not so sure about. The Navy were after a naval version of the Spitfire from late 1939 / early 1940 and were only stopped as the BOB was in progress and the development and build would have slowed the production of Spitfires for the RAF which clearly had an absolute priority.
If we are working on the basis that no European war was underway then it is at least probable that the RN would have had 'Seafires' by the end of 1941. That being the case, with Radar warning and direction, plus by the standards of the day serious AA defences gives the RN a good chance of defending themselves against air attack.

Defending themselves, to a point maybe. Not enough. Spitfire is good but it's no panacea against an A6M.

The Malta convoys are evidence that the RN could hold their own against air attack

The RN carriers got sunk in those convoys. And we have gone into this in great detail. The forces arrayed against the Malta convoys did not compare to the KB and IJN forces in the Pacific.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Regarding the Spitfire, I do think once you have Spitfire IX and VIII - especially VIII due to the improved range, you will start to cause problems for the IJN. Probably comparable to the arrival of Corsairs. This does not necessarily translate to carrier aircraft i.e. Seafires though which had a myriad of problems and didn't make good carrier aircraft, apparently.

 

[SaparotRob]

I don't think they were actually handicapped. Handicapped would be like, all you have to protect the fleet are Fulmars and Sea Gladiators. All your strike aircraft are biplanes...

 

[WARSPITER]

The RN carriers got sunk in those convoys. And we have gone into this in great detail. The forces arrayed against the Malta convoys did not compare to the KB and IJN forces in the Pacific.

The only RN carrier sunk in convoys to Malta was the older HMS Eagle. That went down to a submarine.
The only RN carrier sunk by air attack during the entire war was HMS Hermes.

 

[EwenS]

RAF torpedo bombers.
Pre-war the Beaufort was intended to be the RAF's new torpedo bomber and it entered service from early 1940.

The Wellington became a stopgap TB in the Med from the very end of 1941 (first operations early 1942) due to a lack of Beauforts. These were conversions of bomber aircraft. The Mk.VIII for Coastal Command which appeared in both Leigh Light and TB versions didn't start to come off the production line until around March 1942.

The Hampden was also used as a stopgap TB with UK based squadrons due to a shortage of Beauforts from April 1942.

The requirement for a torpedo carrying Beaufighter as a successor to the Beaufort didn't arise until Dec 1941. A prototype was flying in May 1942 and it was Nov 1942 before the first started flying operationally.

 

[EwenS]

Regarding the Spitfire, I do think once you have Spitfire IX and VIII - especially VIII due to the improved range, you will start to cause problems for the IJN. Probably comparable to the arrival of Corsairs. This does not necessarily translate to carrier aircraft i.e. Seafires though which had a myriad of problems and didn't make good carrier aircraft, apparently.

As for what might have beens, the RN sought information from Supermarine on 15 Dec 1939 for production of 50 Spitfires with folding wings. Supermarine responded on 2 Jan 1940 with a drawing of the Type 338 with folding wings and a Griffon engine. Then by various machinations that became a proposal for an initial 50 hooked Spitfires with folding wings. The whole project was cancelled at the end of March 1940 by no less a person than Churchill then First Lord of the Admiralty. (See Spitfire The History by Morgan & Shacklady)

Now, with no war in Europe maybe Churchill doesn't become First Lord (he was reppointed to the post on 3 Sept 1939 the day war was declared). Then what happens to the Griffon Spitfire with folding wings concept?

 

[WARSPITER]

The cancellations and restarts for the Seafire were ongoing due to different ministries and different ideas on requirements.
The Fulmar was thought at first to be the better option as it had good air time and the second seat would take pressure
off the pilot. Didn't work out perfectly as the opposition in the Med was land based with high performance.

The Battle of Britain was the next fly in the ointment. The RAF got priority of Spitfire production and R&D for the type.

From early 1942 build priority shifted again towards aircraft for bomber command.

By August 1942 it became obvious that a higher performing carrier fighter was needed. The supplies of Martlet's from
the U.S. were not as high as required due to the USN's needs in the Pacific so the Seafire finally got its chance.

The first versions were shoved into service far too soon with any possible changes to the under carriage etc not being
given any time.

War priorities can be a bloody nuisance sometimes.

 

[RCAFson]

Lets compare

Stats----------------SBD--------TBF-----Swordfish----Albacore---Skua----Barracuda----D3A------B5N----D4Y----B6N
Top Speed(MPH)---250--------270--------143-----------161--------225--------240----------270-------235-----340-----300
Range---------------1100-------900--------552----------710--------760--------686-----------915------600------910-----1,085
Bomb Load---------2,250------2,000-------1670--------2000--------500-------1600----------810------1760----1800----1760
Max bomb----------1,000------Torp--------Torp---------Torp-------500--------Torp----------550------Torp----1100----Torp

One aircraft that conspicuously missing from the above is the TBD...

The limitations of navigation and recon seldom permitted carrier strikes longer than 250nm.

The effective range of the SBD-3 with a 500/1000lb bomb was about 250/280nm. Typical range figures quoted for USN (and sometimes IJN) aircraft are theoretical, no reserve ranges, at low altitude and are not real ranges. The SBD-3 never carried a bomb load larger than 1000lb from a carrier, and SBD-3s ranged forward had to have their bomb load progressively reduced to 500/2x100 and then to a single 500lb bomb, depending on weather conditions.
Max speed for a TBF-1/1C was 257/254 mph at 12K ft effective range was about 250nm which was similar to a Albacore with a torpedo and Aux tanks. The TBF-1 couldn't carry DTs and a torpedo when operating from a carrier. Albacore max speed with a torpedo was ~170mph; 161mph was with 6 x 250lb bombs.
The IJN used the D3A-1 until late 1942; max speed was 240mph with a typical 550lb bomb load as the D3A-1 appears to have only carried a single bomb at Coral Sea and Midway. The Skua could carry a 500lb bomb and additional wing mounted bombs but typically carried a single 500lb bomb while the Roc could be used as a DB. D4Y and B6N were late 1943/44 aircraft. The KB was handicapped because no IJN carrier had a catapult.

The Fulmar II was cleared to carry a 500lb bomb in June 1942 but this was a latent capability that always existed in the Fulmar II. Proposals by Fairey to strengthen Fulmar flaps for use as dive brakes were scuttled by the FAA upon the outbreak of the ETO conflict due to the urgent need for a folding wing carrier fighter.

The USN statistical Digest gives the data for SBD carrier based bomb loads and max was 1000lb.

SBDs at Midway:

"The Hornet's dive bombing force comprised thirty-four SBD-3 Dauntlesses, apparently half of them armed with 500-lb. bombs and the rest with thousand-pounders. First to take off were fifteen SBDs from Scouting Eight led by Lt. Cdr. Walter F. Rodee. Next came the "Sea Hag," Cdr. Ring, and two wingmen from Bombing Eight, and finally the sixteen SBDs of Bombing Eight proper under Lt. Cdr. Robert R. Johnson...

The Enterprise's launch did not proceed as smoothly as that of her sister Hornet. At 0706, the fifteen SBDs of Earl Gallaher's Scouting Six began taking off. The initial six carried only a single 500-lb. bomb apiece, but the last nine added one 100-lb. bomb under each wing. Then came the group leader, Wade McClusky, and his pair of VS-6 wingmen. Finally Dick Best's fifteen VB-6 SBDs took off, laden by the far more potent thousand-pounders..." (First Team V.1)

All of the above SBDs were carrying the maximum bomb load possible given the wind and the position of the aircraft on the flight deck. All the SBD squadrons were tasked with a strike mission against the KB; none were tasked with recon.

SBD-3 range in the real world:
Actual range the SBD-5:

Performance of SBD-5 ( USN Pacific Fleet Air Force report dated 26 oct 1943)
Cruising Performance test

"...It is to be noted that the indicated attack range of 600 miles under
the favorable conditions of the performance test is far less than the
range of 1,370 miles claimed for the SBD-5 with 1,000 pound load, It
is also materially less Than the figure of 1,150 miles claimed by BuAero
as the maximum cruising range of the SBD-5 with 1,000 pound bomb.

Combat experience in the Solomons demonstrated that under the ex-
acting air operational conditions obtained there the range of the
with a 1,000 pound bomb was 500 miles. Commander Air Group, USS Saratoga
reported that the working search radius of the Group's SBDs was about
230 miles - "That would be the absolute maximum". The results of the
performance test tend to show that the range of the SBD-5 in spite of
its increased weight should not be less than that of the SBD-3 and 4..."

Similarly Skuas sank Konigsberg at ~300nm from their base.

TBF-1 max speed with a torpedo was 257 mph using Military power at 12k ft (USN SAC data sheet) TBF-1c combat radius to fuel exhaustion was ~300-350nm on 20 June 1944 (attack on IJN) using form-up enroute.

DT = drop tank.

Max range for the Albacore with the internal aux tank and a torpedo was 809nm (Friedman - British Carrier Aviation) at 101 knots at 12600lb TO weight.
(This is also in accord with the Albacore Pilot's Notes)

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The Wellington became a stopgap TB in the Med from the very end of 1941 (first operations early 1942) due to a lack of Beauforts. These were conversions of bomber aircraft. The Mk.VIII for Coastal Command which appeared in both Leigh Light and TB versions didn't start to come off the production line until around March 1942.

Wellingtons fitted for General Reconnaissance started production in December 1940 but were called Ic for a time in 1941 until it was decided to retrospectively call them mark VIII. A batch of 60 from December 1940 to July 1941, with 221 squadron having the prototype T2919 in January 1941 and receiving 5 more in April.

5 more regular Wellington VIII in September 1941 then January, 4 in February and 2 in March 1942, which was the last VIII (GR) production. In March 1942 the first Ic (Torp), VIII (Torp) and VIII (LL) were officially built. Ic (Torp) production ended in October, VIII (LL) in November and VIII (Torp) in December 1942. Mark XI and XII production began in December 1942 and they are reported to have been torpedo capable as was the mark XIII.

Also Vickers Wellington serial numbers