RN 10 large modern = Town class
RN 18 small Modern = 4 x Arethusa and 8 x Leander and ?
The RN would have had ~10 x Dido class and ~10 x Colony class as well.
for 32 smaller Modern light cruisers.
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RN 10 large modern = Town classend of 1941 no European war
CLs....10 Large modern................0
CLs ....18 Small modern...............0
CLs......24 small old......................17
as of the end of 1941 there would have been 6 Dido's, the other 4 were not completed or were working up in Dec 1941.RN 10 large modern = Town class
RN 18 small Modern = 4 x Arethusa and 8 x Leander and ?
The RN would have had ~10 x Dido class and ~10 x Colony class as well.
for 32 smaller Modern light cruisers.
I am going to give him this one. The Nagato's weren't laid down until 1919-1920 so definitely post Jutland.
Just under 3,000 tons of armor added, New boilers slightly upgraded, modified turrets installed with increase elevation and ammo so that ranged increased by 7,500 yds, not that it mattered. The old range was longer than the record (?) held by the British 15in gun for longest ship to ship hit.
Without looking into it I would imagine they upgraded the fire control equipment (longer range finders?)Underwhelming. Raw shooting range and useful range are also very different, as you know. Could it hit at that range? What was Nagato's longest hit? 'Cause Warspite got one at about 26,000 yds.
No radar, crappy AA, lackluster armor even after upgrade. 26 kts downhill if the hull is scraped. This is not modern.
However I am counting the Nelson and Rodney and the Warspite, QE and Valiant as "Modern". At least the QE and Valiant got decent if not great AA
the Nagato's were the reason (or one of them) that the British got to build the Nelson and Rodney and since I only used two categories of BB and since the Nagato's are in somewhat different class than the "R"s what do we do with them????
The Colony class are interesting in that they carried the same armament (12x6in, 8x4in, 6xTTs) as the Town class. Kinda larger than most of the others.as of the end of 1941 there would have been 6 Dido's, the other 4 were not completed or were working up in Dec 1941.
Good catch on the Colony's
5 completed and in service by the end of 1941.
We can argue about faster completions due to different conditions in Europe but that is crate of butterflies already.
I will edit the post to reflect the Colony's.
You are right again. The first 8 got 12 guns, the last 3 got 9 guns and 4 (?) had a turret taken out to end at 9 guns.The Colony class are interesting in that carried the same armament (12x6in, 8x4in, 6xTTs as the Town class. Kinda larger than most of the others.
First of all apologies for missing the inclusion of Air Defence radar from your list. The second part I am not so sure about. The Navy were after a naval version of the Spitfire from late 1939 / early 1940 and were only stopped as the BOB was in progress and the development and build would have slowed the production of Spitfires for the RAF which clearly had an absolute priority.I did mention the British air defense radar in my list. I think it would help in terms of attrition, but I don't think it could save Capital ships and Carriers from being sunk by IJN aircraft.
The limitations of navigation and recon seldom permitted carrier strikes longer than 250nm.
The effective range of the SBD-3 with a 500/1000lb bomb was about 250/280nm. Typical range figures quoted for USN (and sometimes IJN) aircraft are theoretical, no reserve ranges, at low altitude and are not real ranges.
The SBD-3 never carried a bomb load larger than 1000lb from a carrier, and SBD-3s ranged forward had to have their bomb load progressively reduced to 500/2x100 and then to a single 500lb bomb, depending on weather conditions.
Max speed for a TBF-1/1C was 257/254 mph at 12K ft
effective range was about 250nm
which was similar to a Albacore with a torpedo and Aux tanks.
The TBF-1 couldn't carry DTs and a torpedo when operating from a carrier.
Albacore max speed with a torpedo was ~170mph; 161mph was with 6 x 250lb bombs.
The IJN used the D3A-1 until late 1942; max speed was 240mph with a typical 550lb bomb load as the D3A-1 appears to have only carried a single bomb at Coral Sea and Midway.
The Skua could carry a 500lb bomb and additional wing mounted bombs but typically carried a single 500lb bomb while the Roc could be used as a DB. D4Y and B6N were late 1943/44 aircraft.
The KB was handicapped because no IJN carrier had a catapult.
The Fulmar II was cleared to carry a 500lb bomb in June 1942 but this was a latent capability that always existed in the Fulmar II. Proposals by Fairey to strengthen Fulmar flaps for use as dive brakes were scuttled by the FAA upon the outbreak of the ETO conflict due to the urgent need for a folding wing carrier fighter.
Use 'em to attack surface ships. They can carry torpedoes, or suppress EAD, or attack supply lines.
You only mentioned the King George for modern BBs. Sorry I didn't read your mind that you meant all of them, but you not mentioning them at all is, at best, quirky, considering how detailed your rundown purported to be.
Optics are easily defeated by weather. They also are less efficient at night-time and long range, depending on moon.
Because by the middle of 1942, when both Yamato are afloat, the Brits will have five, count 'em five, modern battleships. Put QEs and Rs against Nagatos, and Kongos *snort* and the others. Three moderns on Yamato, two on Musashi.
What's the issue with understanding this?
lol, are you counting Kongos as battleships? Mistake there. 8" of armor ain't a BB. You got 4 WWI hulks against 7, three rebuilt WWI BBs against two, and 5 moderns against 2 Yamatos. The Kongos, as shown OTL, were fragile. One got shot the TF up by Laffey, to be hors d'aircraft the next day.
Really? Like the Brits didn't sit upon the Straits of Macassar? Like their lines of communication through the IO and back to Suez Canal ran through Japanese waters? This is a silly "point". It's like you haven't looked at a map.
If the Japanese wish to interdict the Brits, they will have break through. to break into the IO. Supply lines for both sides are going to be hard to hit.
As for the torpedoes, sure, they're dangerous. But they're not infallible, they depend upon the crewmen shooting them, and the spotters targeting them. How many hit Washington or SoDak? How many hit their own transports? Yeah, they ain't silver bullets.
I think your bias is painting your vision. Slow down a little and actually think about this.
First of all apologies for missing the inclusion of Air Defence radar from your list. The second part I am not so sure about. The Navy were after a naval version of the Spitfire from late 1939 / early 1940 and were only stopped as the BOB was in progress and the development and build would have slowed the production of Spitfires for the RAF which clearly had an absolute priority.
If we are working on the basis that no European war was underway then it is at least probable that the RN would have had 'Seafires' by the end of 1941. That being the case, with Radar warning and direction, plus by the standards of the day serious AA defences gives the RN a good chance of defending themselves against air attack.
The Malta convoys are evidence that the RN could hold their own against air attack
I don't think they were actually handicapped. Handicapped would be like, all you have to protect the fleet are Fulmars and Sea Gladiators. All your strike aircraft are biplanes...
The only RN carrier sunk in convoys to Malta was the older HMS Eagle. That went down to a submarine.The RN carriers got sunk in those convoys. And we have gone into this in great detail. The forces arrayed against the Malta convoys did not compare to the KB and IJN forces in the Pacific.
As for what might have beens, the RN sought information from Supermarine on 15 Dec 1939 for production of 50 Spitfires with folding wings. Supermarine responded on 2 Jan 1940 with a drawing of the Type 338 with folding wings and a Griffon engine. Then by various machinations that became a proposal for an initial 50 hooked Spitfires with folding wings. The whole project was cancelled at the end of March 1940 by no less a person than Churchill then First Lord of the Admiralty. (See Spitfire The History by Morgan & Shacklady)Regarding the Spitfire, I do think once you have Spitfire IX and VIII - especially VIII due to the improved range, you will start to cause problems for the IJN. Probably comparable to the arrival of Corsairs. This does not necessarily translate to carrier aircraft i.e. Seafires though which had a myriad of problems and didn't make good carrier aircraft, apparently.
Lets compare
Stats----------------SBD--------TBF-----Swordfish----Albacore---Skua----Barracuda----D3A------B5N----D4Y----B6N
Top Speed(MPH)---250--------270--------143-----------161--------225--------240----------270-------235-----340-----300
Range---------------1100-------900--------552----------710--------760--------686-----------915------600------910-----1,085
Bomb Load---------2,250------2,000-------1670--------2000--------500-------1600----------810------1760----1800----1760
Max bomb----------1,000------Torp--------Torp---------Torp-------500--------Torp----------550------Torp----1100----Torp
The limitations of navigation and recon seldom permitted carrier strikes longer than 250nm.
The effective range of the SBD-3 with a 500/1000lb bomb was about 250/280nm. Typical range figures quoted for USN (and sometimes IJN) aircraft are theoretical, no reserve ranges, at low altitude and are not real ranges. The SBD-3 never carried a bomb load larger than 1000lb from a carrier, and SBD-3s ranged forward had to have their bomb load progressively reduced to 500/2x100 and then to a single 500lb bomb, depending on weather conditions.
Max speed for a TBF-1/1C was 257/254 mph at 12K ft effective range was about 250nm which was similar to a Albacore with a torpedo and Aux tanks. The TBF-1 couldn't carry DTs and a torpedo when operating from a carrier. Albacore max speed with a torpedo was ~170mph; 161mph was with 6 x 250lb bombs.
The IJN used the D3A-1 until late 1942; max speed was 240mph with a typical 550lb bomb load as the D3A-1 appears to have only carried a single bomb at Coral Sea and Midway. The Skua could carry a 500lb bomb and additional wing mounted bombs but typically carried a single 500lb bomb while the Roc could be used as a DB. D4Y and B6N were late 1943/44 aircraft. The KB was handicapped because no IJN carrier had a catapult.
The Fulmar II was cleared to carry a 500lb bomb in June 1942 but this was a latent capability that always existed in the Fulmar II. Proposals by Fairey to strengthen Fulmar flaps for use as dive brakes were scuttled by the FAA upon the outbreak of the ETO conflict due to the urgent need for a folding wing carrier fighter.
Wellingtons fitted for General Reconnaissance started production in December 1940 but were called Ic for a time in 1941 until it was decided to retrospectively call them mark VIII. A batch of 60 from December 1940 to July 1941, with 221 squadron having the prototype T2919 in January 1941 and receiving 5 more in April.The Wellington became a stopgap TB in the Med from the very end of 1941 (first operations early 1942) due to a lack of Beauforts. These were conversions of bomber aircraft. The Mk.VIII for Coastal Command which appeared in both Leigh Light and TB versions didn't start to come off the production line until around March 1942.