Admiral Beez
Major
Russia has always been ruled by a strongman, a Mongol Khan, Tsar, Soviet General Secretary, or today's President for life. Nicolas just wasn't the strongman .
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Russo-Japanese war 1904-1905
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
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- Jun 27, 2007
That Nogi Maresuki guy at the seige of Port Arthur blows my mind.
Send wave after wave thousands to their death.
The Japanese were willing to die for the emperor cos duty is as heavy as a mountain and death is as light as a feather.
But Nogi was very much of the idea that many of you will die but that's a sacrifice I am willing to make.
Yikes I no general but damn boy save some soldiers for tomorrow.
Send wave after wave thousands to their death.
The Japanese were willing to die for the emperor cos duty is as heavy as a mountain and death is as light as a feather.
But Nogi was very much of the idea that many of you will die but that's a sacrifice I am willing to make.
Yikes I no general but damn boy save some soldiers for tomorrow.
It's a sort of Bushido as soldiers had to obey order but Nogi was unqualified as a military man originally. He had lost even Emperor's flag as a young private during the civil wars. He did not cost his life to protect it like other men. Emperor should have deported him immediately but had given him a second chance as a military man because he looked 'honest'.
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The Basket
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Thank you for your reply Shinpachi.
Nogi became the poster boy for duty, honour, dignity, service to Japan and the emperor. He committed seppuku for the losses under his command after the emperor died. He did look good in uniform which is always a plus.
The siege of Port Arthur was more a case of a death cult rather than an army.
I am no expert but kill the enemy and not yourselves.
Nogi ordered wave after wave of 'human bullets' against fortified positions of machine guns and artillery and killed 16,000 of his own troops.
I guess a death cult needs heroes and Nogi sent men to their deaths by the thousand so they can prove how well they die.
Nogi became the poster boy for duty, honour, dignity, service to Japan and the emperor. He committed seppuku for the losses under his command after the emperor died. He did look good in uniform which is always a plus.
The siege of Port Arthur was more a case of a death cult rather than an army.
I am no expert but kill the enemy and not yourselves.
Nogi ordered wave after wave of 'human bullets' against fortified positions of machine guns and artillery and killed 16,000 of his own troops.
I guess a death cult needs heroes and Nogi sent men to their deaths by the thousand so they can prove how well they die.
Decisive attack by cannons to fall 203Hill of Port Arthur was not Nogi's idea but Chief of staff Gentaro Kodama's. Kodama gave all honor to Nogi as Nogi's reputation in the homeland was so terrible. Hero was created after the victory.
Attacking 203 Hill of Port Arthur
Attacking 203 Hill of Port Arthur
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
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203 metre hill was the tallest hill around Port Arthur and so was pretty tactical. The fact Nogi didnt know or see this is pretty poor.
Probably week 1, day 1 stuff on how to win wars at war college.
How many soldiers is Nogi going to send to their deaths? All of them.
The charge of the light brigade is a warning not a guidebook.
Probably week 1, day 1 stuff on how to win wars at war college.
How many soldiers is Nogi going to send to their deaths? All of them.
The charge of the light brigade is a warning not a guidebook.
There were many criticism about Nogi at the time including his loyal seppuku (suicide involving his wife) but, as Emperor loved Nogi like his son, Nogi was inviolable as though a royal member. People did not believe his heroic story but innocent kids who were to lead the ww2 later.
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The Basket
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Japan wanted heroes not villains.
They wanted men who put duty and honour and service to the emperor above military capability and common sense.
Nogi became a poster boy for the type of militarism they wanted.
And that's where we get 1930s and 1940s.
They wanted men who put duty and honour and service to the emperor above military capability and common sense.
Nogi became a poster boy for the type of militarism they wanted.
And that's where we get 1930s and 1940s.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,994
- Jun 25, 2013
Nicolas was, by all accounts, a nice person. He was just totally unable to accept that he was also basically incompetent and detached from reality.
This is a story before Nogi's heroic story was created. Reported in 1905 from the battlefield.
During the battle for a hill of Port Arthur, raising a red cross flag, Japanese side had to offer Russian side a cease-fire to remove remains from the slope because there were too many to continue the battle. Japanese and Russian officers negotiated schedule for it exchanging cigarettes and drinking whiskey together on the slope.
J: I'm afraid you are tired sirs as this war is not over yet.
R1: Thanks for your care sir but we are still fine though I hope this war will be over as soon as possible.
J: I agree. I want peace as war is tragic. Such a battle against the fortress like this is especially tragic.
R1: I want peace too. I want to stop this war but no way as my country doesn't.
R2: War is cruel. I want to stop it but I have to fight because Japan doesn't stop.
R3: We may give you Port Arthur anytime but your bloodshed is not enough yet.
R4: I envy your mail service in the battlefield. May I hand you my mail for my family?
They enjoyed free talk like this on the slope for 3 hours.
(Source: Russo-Japanese War Movie Guide published in 1905
日露大戦幻灯映画説明書. 第10回 上 - 国立国会図書館デジタルコレクション )
During the battle for a hill of Port Arthur, raising a red cross flag, Japanese side had to offer Russian side a cease-fire to remove remains from the slope because there were too many to continue the battle. Japanese and Russian officers negotiated schedule for it exchanging cigarettes and drinking whiskey together on the slope.
J: I'm afraid you are tired sirs as this war is not over yet.
R1: Thanks for your care sir but we are still fine though I hope this war will be over as soon as possible.
J: I agree. I want peace as war is tragic. Such a battle against the fortress like this is especially tragic.
R1: I want peace too. I want to stop this war but no way as my country doesn't.
R2: War is cruel. I want to stop it but I have to fight because Japan doesn't stop.
R3: We may give you Port Arthur anytime but your bloodshed is not enough yet.
R4: I envy your mail service in the battlefield. May I hand you my mail for my family?
They enjoyed free talk like this on the slope for 3 hours.
(Source: Russo-Japanese War Movie Guide published in 1905
日露大戦幻灯映画説明書. 第10回 上 - 国立国会図書館デジタルコレクション )
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Not to mention the rail transport of troops across large distances, which led at least indirectly to the mobilization plans of WWI.
ETA: I see you got to this, reading further. Still catching up on the thread.
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The Basket
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Pretty horrific story if your dead are so thick on the ground that they are stopping your advance.
Thing with the Russo Japanese war is that it's all there. In clear detail.
So ww1 and the horrors and Japanese capability and also tactics strategic ideas. It all there. No need to learn them in ww1 as the same lessons should have been learnt 10 years before.
The Japanese were economically and militarily exhausted to the point of bankruptcy. So they couldn't continue any further. This was unknown to the Japanese public so they protested at the peace treaty but it was as good as it could be given the circumstances Japan was in.
The war with Russia was going to be short and sharp with a late declaration of war and the opening attack will be against a naval port. Once military objective has been met then sue for peace as Japan couldn't fight a long war against Russia which 'technicall' was superior in manpower and war material....cough....apart from Russia was in a very poor way.
So give to the Americas what they gave Russia and expect same results.
Thing with the Russo Japanese war is that it's all there. In clear detail.
So ww1 and the horrors and Japanese capability and also tactics strategic ideas. It all there. No need to learn them in ww1 as the same lessons should have been learnt 10 years before.
The Japanese were economically and militarily exhausted to the point of bankruptcy. So they couldn't continue any further. This was unknown to the Japanese public so they protested at the peace treaty but it was as good as it could be given the circumstances Japan was in.
The war with Russia was going to be short and sharp with a late declaration of war and the opening attack will be against a naval port. Once military objective has been met then sue for peace as Japan couldn't fight a long war against Russia which 'technicall' was superior in manpower and war material....cough....apart from Russia was in a very poor way.
So give to the Americas what they gave Russia and expect same results.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Cold Harbor in the American Civil War delivered many of the the same lessons 50 years prior.
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
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Obviously the American civil war was a modern conflict in that the idea of industrial production and modern weapons were as important as the actual battles.
Smokeless powder which was not around in the 1860s changed warfare so you have the new Maxim and Mosin and modern artillery pieces which meant longer effective ranges and faster quicker reloads.
Of course the same types and I would wager the actual rifles were used in WW1 such as the Type 30 rifle and Mosin were used in both conflicts. Plus the same generals such as Samsonov and Rennenkampf whose feud made them ineffective stems from this war.
The Mosin might be everyone's idea of a bad rifle but it's a goddam plasma rifle compared to anything before the smokeless era. Including Chassepot and Dreyse and Gras.
So comparing the Mosin to the Springfield 1861 rifle is just a huge no. A modern repeating rifle firing smokeless modern ammunition v a rifled musket which may fire 3 rounds per minute if you are quick.
Smokeless powder which was not around in the 1860s changed warfare so you have the new Maxim and Mosin and modern artillery pieces which meant longer effective ranges and faster quicker reloads.
Of course the same types and I would wager the actual rifles were used in WW1 such as the Type 30 rifle and Mosin were used in both conflicts. Plus the same generals such as Samsonov and Rennenkampf whose feud made them ineffective stems from this war.
The Mosin might be everyone's idea of a bad rifle but it's a goddam plasma rifle compared to anything before the smokeless era. Including Chassepot and Dreyse and Gras.
So comparing the Mosin to the Springfield 1861 rifle is just a huge no. A modern repeating rifle firing smokeless modern ammunition v a rifled musket which may fire 3 rounds per minute if you are quick.
Shortround6
Major General
In the American Civil war you had a number of factors come into play.
The change from the Springfield 1861 (or the 1853 Enfield in Crimea ) from the smooth bore muskets were right up there plasma rifles.
They should have had a major change in tactics as great or greater than the advent of smokeless powder.
Change to the Minie ball rifle tripled to quintupled the effective range of the infantry solider and changed (or should have changed) the whole dynamic of the battlefield.
No longer could opposing armies line up, standing in few view of the enemy, fire a few volleys and do a short 80-120yd bayonet charge.
Defensive earthworks, even just rifle pits, became the normal tactic and failing that, natural cover like trees and fences/stone walls became important tactical considerations.
The Civil war also introduced rifled artillery with it's increase in range, again less than smokeless range, but doubling/tripling the range of the artillery used for several hundred years.
Trying to sort out indirect fire took a while longer but it was being worked on during the Civil war.
Trains being used for supply/troop movement.
Telegraph for long range signaling instead of riders on horseback, although the riders were still tactical communications.
The change from the Springfield 1861 (or the 1853 Enfield in Crimea ) from the smooth bore muskets were right up there plasma rifles.
They should have had a major change in tactics as great or greater than the advent of smokeless powder.
Change to the Minie ball rifle tripled to quintupled the effective range of the infantry solider and changed (or should have changed) the whole dynamic of the battlefield.
No longer could opposing armies line up, standing in few view of the enemy, fire a few volleys and do a short 80-120yd bayonet charge.
Defensive earthworks, even just rifle pits, became the normal tactic and failing that, natural cover like trees and fences/stone walls became important tactical considerations.
The Civil war also introduced rifled artillery with it's increase in range, again less than smokeless range, but doubling/tripling the range of the artillery used for several hundred years.
Trying to sort out indirect fire took a while longer but it was being worked on during the Civil war.
Trains being used for supply/troop movement.
Telegraph for long range signaling instead of riders on horseback, although the riders were still tactical communications.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
The Spencer and Henry rifles were serious advancements as well.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
The first assault rifles. I bought a lever action rifle.
"No M'am, it's a cowboy gun".
"No M'am, it's a cowboy gun".
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
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- Jun 27, 2007
The round nose 7.62x54R of 1905 sources give bullet weight as 13.73 g (211.9 gr) and length as 30.5 mm. Muzzle velocity was 615-620 m/s.
Henry 44 rimfire 200 gr (13 g) lead 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s.
So I have no idea if the sources are correct and most Mosin info is ww2 spitzer stuff which is not relevant to this period.
But it's fair to say the Mosin is more modern and powerful than the Henry. Although the Henry is of course black powder but in close quarters looks very handy.
I am trying to justify the Mosin which is impossible as the Mosin is a very low bar. Please stop making me say nice things about the Mosin. It's freaking me out.
Henry 44 rimfire 200 gr (13 g) lead 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s.
So I have no idea if the sources are correct and most Mosin info is ww2 spitzer stuff which is not relevant to this period.
But it's fair to say the Mosin is more modern and powerful than the Henry. Although the Henry is of course black powder but in close quarters looks very handy.
I am trying to justify the Mosin which is impossible as the Mosin is a very low bar. Please stop making me say nice things about the Mosin. It's freaking me out.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Union and Confederacy used repeating rifles, which greatly increased their firepower and accuracy.
Even though they used black powder cartridges, it was the first war in history that involved repeating arms.
Smokeless powder would come along about 20 years after the Civil War.
Even though they used black powder cartridges, it was the first war in history that involved repeating arms.
Smokeless powder would come along about 20 years after the Civil War.
