SBD vs. JU-87 vs. Aichi D3A

[stug3]

 

[tomo pauk]

Thanks for bringing out this one, stug3 (my favorite German AFV, BTW).
Looking into the manual of the Ju-87B-2, the 1000 kg bomb is the maximum (not 500 kg + wing bombs, as written many times), the plane flying on full fuel, ammo and crew. The almost 4000 lbs bomb of the Ju-87D is simply great.

 

[Denniss]

Typical load of the Ju 87B was 500kg + 4x50kg bombs, Ju 87D had to sacrify fuel for the 1.8t bomb.

 

[tomo pauk]

Agreed on both accounts, the outer wing fuel tanks (300L /225 kg) were not to be filled if the 1,8t bomb was to be carried, so the Ju-87D was able to carry only 480L of fuel. The max bomb load with full fuel was 1,4t bomb, as we can see on page 4 of this thread.
The Ju-87B-2 maximum: 1000 kg, with 500L.

 

[Sydhuey]

All 3 were great at their job of precision dive bombing, but all fighter bait without fighter cover , look at some of the kills against dive bombers for example "Killer" Caldwell got 2 x JU87's and 1/2 a 110 on 30Jun 41 and 5 x 87's and a damaged MC200 on 05 Dec 41 flying P-40's, and he was only one ace with multiple kills against dive bombers in one mission, as mentioned the 8th BS of the 3RD BG got ravaged over New Guinea in late 1942 and soon got rid of there A-24's an flew A-20's and B-25's, yet the US issued SBD's to the RNZAF in the Solomans in 1944 and they operated quite successfully over Bougainville with fighter cover, what a differance two years and air superiority makes!!

 

[stug3]

Crewmen wheel bombs to planes on the Big E's flight deck, during the 1 February 1942 Marshall Islands Raid: the first U.S. offensive of the Pacific War. Courtesy: William T. Barr CV6. org

SBD Dauntless dive bomber of either VB-6 or VS-6 on the carrier USS Enterprise (CV-6) prepares for takeoff during the 1 February 1942 Marshall Islands Raid.

 

[davebender]

Rudel mentions using a 1,000kg AP bomb when attacking Soviet warships during the fall of 1941. His unit had to wait for the special bombs to arrive before conducting the mission.

 

[stug3]

Stukas returning from a raid in the desert, 1942

 

[pattle]

I was just wondering what would of happened if the roles were reversed and the Dauntless had of been German the Stuka American? How well would the Stuka have done at Midway and how well would the Dauntless have done in the Battle of Britain, if we could answer this sort of question then just perhaps we could agree which was the better of the two aircraft. Personally I think in the Battle of Britain the Dauntless may have been a little less vulnerable to Hurricanes than the Stuka and at Midway I don't think the Stuka would of had the range to reach the Japanese fleet and return home as the Dauntless did, but then it remains to be seen if the Dauntless would of had the opportunity to attack the Japanese fleet if it were not for the sacrifice of the Devastators. I think really though that true dive-bombers were a bit rubbish once up against Corsairs, Hellcats, Seafires and their like but that they possibly were still better suited to sea rather than to land based enviroments. As a final point I'm the sure the Fleet Air Arm would of had more use for Dauntless's than Stukas early war.

 

[Njaco]

True dive-bombers weren't designed to go against Corsairs, Hellcats, Seafires and their like but targets on the ground. Thats why they were rubbish against fighters.

 

[davebender]

1,000kg bomb vs 1,000lb bomb. A bit more accurate too. Ju-87D would have done a lot more damage then SBD.

 

[Glider]

I was just wondering what would of happened if the roles were reversed and the Dauntless had of been German the Stuka American? How well would the Stuka have done at Midway and how well would the Dauntless have done in the Battle of Britain, if we could answer this sort of question then just perhaps we could agree which was the better of the two aircraft. Personally I think in the Battle of Britain the Dauntless may have been a little less vulnerable to Hurricanes than the Stuka and at Midway I don't think the Stuka would of had the range to reach the Japanese fleet and return home as the Dauntless did, but then it remains to be seen if the Dauntless would of had the opportunity to attack the Japanese fleet if it were not for the sacrifice of the Devastators. I think really though that true dive-bombers were a bit rubbish once up against Corsairs, Hellcats, Seafires and their like but that they possibly were still better suited to sea rather than to land based enviroments. As a final point I'm the sure the Fleet Air Arm would of had more use for Dauntless's than Stukas early war.

The RN would have been better off facing the Dauntlass.

 

[Juha]

The heaviest bomb SBD could carry was 1600lb.

Juha

 

[altsym]

Which is 1000kg. Tough call between the SBD the Stuka, but I'd have to go for the Stuka as a dual purpose aircraft.

 

[davebender]

Perhaps so but in combat SBD routinely carried 1,000lbs. Ju-87D routinely carried 1,000kg. Over twice the payload.

In regards to Midway no SBD bomb penetrated past lower hanger deck. Consequently none of the four IJN CVs were in danger of sinking even though the hanger deck fires were impressive. Theoretically all four IJN CVs could have eventually started one or more engines and crept to port.

Hit the IJN CVs with 1,000kg AP bombs and they will penetrate into lower hull which tends to cause a lot more damage. 1,000kg bomb also contains more HE filler.

 

[RCAFson]

Actually 1600lb = about 730kg.

 

[pattle]

True dive-bombers weren't designed to go against Corsairs, Hellcats, Seafires and their like but targets on the ground. Thats why they were rubbish against fighters.

So dive bombers were invented before fighters then, I never knew that sorry. Or was it that nobody guessed that ground targets just might be protected by fighters? What bombers were designed to have dogfights with fighters?
I always believed that a large part of accurate bombing depended upon reaching the target before being shot down.

 

[VBF-13]

Pattle, my Dad qualified in SBDs before he went off to F6Fs. The SBDs had firepower but that was principally to enable them to get the heck out of there, once they made their bomb run. They mixed it up with the fighters, some, and took care their share of those, too, but they knew better than to go looking for it, let me just put it that way.

 

[Njaco]

So dive bombers were invented before fighters then, I never knew that sorry. Or was it that nobody guessed that ground targets just might be protected by fighters? What bombers were designed to have dogfights with fighters?
I always believed that a large part of accurate bombing depended upon reaching the target before being shot down.

I was just trying to state the obvious when you post that dive-bombers were rubbish when against fighters. The only ground target protection aircraft I remember were factory defense units in Occupied Europe during the war and the Me 163s of JG 400. Other than that, fighters were to protect bombers. And just to set things straight, bombers were actually developed to be a match against tri-engined recon planes.......

 

[Shortround6]

Perhaps so but in combat SBD routinely carried 1,000lbs. Ju-87D routinely carried 1,000kg. Over twice the payload.

In regards to Midway no SBD bomb penetrated past lower hanger deck. Consequently none of the four IJN CVs were in danger of sinking even though the hanger deck fires were impressive. Theoretically all four IJN CVs could have eventually started one or more engines and crept to port.

Hit the IJN CVs with 1,000kg AP bombs and they will penetrate into lower hull which tends to cause a lot more damage. 1,000kg bomb also contains more HE filler.

Trouble with using Ju 87 is it is rather nice to get your highly trained dive bomber crews back for a second strike if not future operations. It is also rather nice to actually get your dive bombers TO the enemy instead of watching them splash down in front of the carrier and get run over.

Ju-87D carried about 1285-1290lbs of fuel in internal tanks. SBD carried 1704lbs internal. Range/radius of action in favor of the Dauntless. Wing loading of the Dauntless was 32.9 lb/sq.ft at max T-O weight. Ju-87D was 37.5lb/sq.ft. at normal take-off weight. SBD-5 had a better power to weight ratio too, although earlier ones weren't so good. The Ju-87C for carrier use was closely related to the "B" model and was about 3,000lbs lighter at T-O weight than the D-1 with the same size wing.

AS for the the use of 1000KG AP bombs? It rather depends on the fuses, the Big AP bomb may just go right out the bottom of the ship without exploding if the armor decks are thin.

In any case it is rather doubtful that a 1000kg AP bomb has more HE than a 1000lb GP bomb. German PC-1000 bomb carried 152 kg (335lb) of HE.
American 1600lb AP bomb carried less explosive than a 500lb GP bomb which is why, even though they look impressive for weight of bombs carried, they were so seldom used in actual bomb raids.