Short Brothers flying boat conversion to land based transport?

[chris ballance]

Did anyone ever consider using a Short Sunderland or one of the other Short flying boats as a starting point for a land based transport, bomber or maritime patrol aircraft? The result of the conversation being like a smaller version of what Blohm & Voss proposed to do with BV 238 to create the BV 250?


?

 

[EwenS]

I was wondering if Short Brothers ever proposed a land based transport using the Short Sunderland or one of its other flying boats as a starting point, with the result being like a smaller version of what Blohm & Voss proposed to do with BV 238 to create the BV 250?

Where is the requirement?

Pre-WW2 most of the bomber specs included requirements for their use as transports. For example:-
Vickers Valentia produced as a bomber transport. Still in service in Middle East in WW2
C.26/31 for a bomber transport. Amongst the loads to be carried 24 fully equipped troops or 10 stretcher cases. Bristol won with the Bombay. Used as transport in WW2 in ME.
29/35 for a Heavy Bomber Development to retain secondary role as a standby transport. Produced the Handley Page Harrow. Used as transport at home in WW2.
B.12/36 that led to the Short Stirling. IIRC this also had a transport requirement.
P.13/36 for a Medium Bomber that led to the Manchester & Halifax. Initially included a requirement to carry 10 fully equipped troops which was finally dropped around 1940.

The successor to the Sunderland was intended to be the Short Shetland produced to Spec R.14/40 and developed in conjunction with Saro, as a flying boat for general recce. Later consideration was given to its use as a transport.

Once the US entered WW2 there was agreement that Britain would concentrate on offensive types, leaving the transport field to the USA. So the only British wartime transport types are leftovers from pre-war or bomber conversions from Stirlings, Halifaxes, Warwicks & Albemarles. Interest in civilian air transport types only begins again with the creation of the Brabazon Committee which held its first meeting in Dec 1942. One of its aims was to arrive at requirements for new types that would not directly compete with US types, so allowing a worldwide market for them. It held its final meeting in Nov 1945. It led to many types of different sizes, some successful, others less so and others failures. one was the Saro Princess flying boat.

 

[chris ballance]

Where is the requirement?

Pre-WW2 most of the bomber specs included requirements for their use as transports. For example:-
Vickers Valentia produced as a bomber transport. Still in service in Middle East in WW2
C.26/31 for a bomber transport. Amongst the loads to be carried 24 fully equipped troops or 10 stretcher cases. Bristol won with the Bombay. Used as transport in WW2 in ME.
29/35 for a Heavy Bomber Development to retain secondary role as a standby transport. Produced the Handley Page Harrow. Used as transport at home in WW2.
B.12/36 that led to the Short Stirling. IIRC this also had a transport requirement.
P.13/36 for a Medium Bomber that led to the Manchester & Halifax. Initially included a requirement to carry 10 fully equipped troops which was finally dropped around 1940.

The successor to the Sunderland was intended to be the Short Shetland produced to Spec R.14/40 and developed in conjunction with Saro, as a flying boat for general recce. Later consideration was given to its use as a transport.

Once the US entered WW2 there was agreement that Britain would concentrate on offensive types, leaving the transport field to the USA. So the only British wartime transport types are leftovers from pre-war or bomber conversions from Stirlings, Halifaxes, Warwicks & Albemarles. Interest in civilian air transport types only begins again with the creation of the Brabazon Committee which held its first meeting in Dec 1942. One of its aims was to arrive at requirements for new types that would not directly compete with US types, so allowing a worldwide market for them. It held its final meeting in Nov 1945. It led to many types of different sizes, some successful, others less so and others failures. one was the Saro Princess flying boat.

Thank you for the detailed background. I knew the British aircraft industry was constrained, but never knew about the agreement to turnover wartime military transport aircraft production to the US. Was the plan to use BOA and other state subsidized air carrier purchases to keep civilian aircraft manufacturing going during the initial glut of American aircraft in the immediate postwar?

 

[EwenS]

Thank you for the detailed background. I knew the British aircraft industry was constrained, but never knew about the agreement to turnover wartime military transport aircraft production to the US. Was the plan to use BOA and other state subsidized air carrier purchases to keep civilian aircraft manufacturing going during the initial glut of American aircraft in the immediate postwar?

The initial postwar equipment for the airlines were the York, Hythe & Sandringham, & converted bombers like the Lancastrian & Halton (from Halifax). Then came a series of interim designs like Avro Tudor & HP Hermes ( better known for its RAF Hastings version) & Vickers Viking. All these started life as civil versions of bombers, as well as the Bristol Freighter, Avro XIX and Airspeed Consul. All these were preferred to spending US dollars on imports.

3 nationalised airlines at that point. BOAC (overseas routes except Latin America), BEA (internal & European destinations) & BSAA (British South American Airways for services to Latin America)

Due to a lack of British aircraft with transatlantic range and a decent payload, the Govt allowed BOAC to buy 5 Lockheed 049 Constellations in 1946, and order 6 Boeing Stratocruisers for delivery in 1949. More detail in this article about early BOAC history.

 

[chris ballance]

The initial postwar equipment for the airlines were the York, Hythe & Sandringham, & converted bombers like the Lancastrian & Halton (from Halifax). Then came a series of interim designs like Avro Tudor & HP Hermes ( better known for its RAF Hastings version) & Vickers Viking. All these started life as civil versions of bombers, as well as the Bristol Freighter, Avro XIX and Airspeed Consul. All these were preferred to spending US dollars on imports.

3 nationalised airlines at that point. BOAC (overseas routes except Latin America), BEA (internal & European destinations) & BSAA (British South American Airways for services to Latin America)

Due to a lack of British aircraft with transatlantic range and a decent payload, the Govt allowed BOAC to buy 5 Lockheed 049 Constellations in 1946, and order 6 Boeing Stratocruisers for delivery in 1949. More detail in this article about early BOAC history.

Thanks, the only information I have the civilian side of British aircraft during the war is the official BOA history which sort of ends in 1944.

 

[b0ned0me]

Thank you for the detailed background. I knew the British aircraft industry was constrained, but never knew about the agreement to turnover wartime military transport aircraft production to the US.

I have never seen any official texts related to this agreement that sometimes exercises the Anglophile aviation community, but to me it seems fairly and there was no "turnover" involved. The US had by far the worlds largest civil passenger and cargo network and had for major transports in 1940:
Douglas DC-3
Curtiss Commando
Boeing Stratoliner, 247, Flying Boats
Lockheed Electra/super electra/lodestar
They had under development the DC-4 and Lockheed constellation.

The British had nothing comparable except maybe the de havilland flamingo and shorts flying boats. So the choice was to either

• focus on bombers and fighter, use US transports where good transports were needed and old bombers where mediocre transports would do
• Take a lot of attention off combat planes to build mediocre transports now while attempting to develop new transports equivalent to what the US had on the assembly lines now

To me it's a bit of a no-brainer decision tbh. Britains aircraft industry just had too much to do.
As for the future - even before WW2 the foreign market had been largely sewn up by the US and Germans, and British airlines would probably have been buying US machines if it wasn't for the Air Ministry. The Brabazon committee was a bit of a forlorn hope, even if Bristol, shorts, de havilland and Vickers managed a pretty good showing over the next 40 years or so.

 

[EwenS]

Britain had a number of civilian airliner designs on the verge of coming good in the run up to WW2.

DH.91 De Havilland Albatross - mail plane & 22 seat airliner.

de Havilland Albatross - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

DH.95 De Havilland Flamingo - their first all metal aircraft. 12-17 seat airliner.

de Havilland Flamingo - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Fairey FC.1 - long range 26 seater with orders from British Airways. Cancelled in Oct 1939. Service entry had been planned for around 1941.

Fairey FC1 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Airspeed AS.6 Envoy - 6 seater (developed into Oxford trainer and Post war Consul airliner)

Airspeed Envoy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Avro 652 - 4 seater (developed into 652A Anson)

Avro 652 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Armstrong Whitworth A.W.27 Ensign - 27-40 seater.

Armstrong Whitworth Ensign - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But priorities, once war broke out.

 

[Zmauky]

And a little historical background, Sunderlands flew transport missions in the "Berlin Bridge"

 

[Admiral Beez]

Did any British flying boats have retractable undercarriages like the Consolidated PBY Catalina, Douglas YOA-5 or Dornier Do 2, or the postwar Short Sealand? If not, adding amphibious capability seems the best place to start.

 

[chris ballance]

Did any British flying boats have retractable undercarriages like the Consolidated PBY Catalina, Douglas YOA-5 or Dornier Do 2, or the postwar Short Sealand? If not, adding amphibious capability seems the best place to start.

The Supermarine Walrus and Sea Otter had retractable landing gear. Wiki claims the Seagull V (Walrus prototype) was the first British military aircraft to be fitted with a retractable undercarriage. I don't know if that is true.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Supermarine Walrus and Sea Otter had retractable landing gear.

My bad. I meant to ask about multi-engine flying boats capable of transport work, like the Sikorsky S-43. It must have been interesting to land a Walrus onto an aircraft carrier without a hook. Of course with a 55 knot stall speed, when landing on any of RN's >25 knot carriers with any WoD, the Walrus was essentially VSTOL. Though it looks dodgy in this landing below.

I wonder what the largest flying boat ever landed on an aircraft carrier was. Of course having a need to operate your flying boat from an aircraft carrier defeats the purpose of the type.

 

[Dimlee]

My bad. I meant to ask about multi-engine flying boats capable of transport work, like the Sikorsky S-43. It must have been interesting to land a Walrus onto an aircraft carrier without a hook. Of course with a 55 knot stall speed, when landing on any of RN's >25 knot carriers with any WoD, the Walrus was essentially VSTOL. Though it looks dodgy in this landing below.

View attachment 818444

I wonder what the largest flying boat ever landed on an aircraft carrier was. Of course having a need to operate your flying boat from an aircraft carrier defeats the purpose of the type.

Since Walrus is almost VTOL, in this picture, he might have been taking off. Or hovering over the deck, with the elements of aerobatics. Did he begin a barrel roll?

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wonder if the Grumman HU-16 Albatross could land on and takeoff from a Midway class or larger carrier? It would be the ultimate fixed wing COD. Until the V22.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Did anyone ever consider using a Short Sunderland or one of the other Short flying boats as a starting point for a land based transport, bomber or maritime patrol aircraft? The result of the conversation being like a smaller version of what Blohm & Voss proposed to do with BV 238 to create the BV 250?


?View attachment 800825

The Short Stirling is described in Profile #142 as "very similar" to the Short Sunderland. There must have been some commonality of components.

 

[EwenS]

My bad. I meant to ask about multi-engine flying boats capable of transport work, like the Sikorsky S-43. It must have been interesting to land a Walrus onto an aircraft carrier without a hook. Of course with a 55 knot stall speed, when landing on any of RN's >25 knot carriers with any WoD, the Walrus was essentially VSTOL. Though it looks dodgy in this landing below.

View attachment 818444

I wonder what the largest flying boat ever landed on an aircraft carrier was. Of course having a need to operate your flying boat from an aircraft carrier defeats the purpose of the type.

Not in all cases.

Before the advent of a helicopter with reasonable lifting capacity, the Walrus made a very good ASR aircraft for aircrew downed outside the immediate vicinity of a carrier and it's task group. Illustrious operated a pair during Operation Meridian in Jan 1945 for that purpose (named Darby & Joan). That flight moved over to Victorious for Operation Iceberg.

Your photo is of one of 1700 squadron's Walrus landing on the escort carrier HMS Ameer in July 1945 in the Indian Ocean. One of the detachment's Walrus rescued a Hellcat pilot only 200 yards off Japanese occupied Car Nicobar Island on 8 July 1945.

Postwar, the ship's flights on the light carriers initially had a Walrus then a Sea Otter ASR.II. A Sea Otter from HMS Triumph carried out the last rescue by the type on 19 July 1950, rescuing a USN Corsair pilot in difficult conditions off Korea. Theseus & Glory subsequently borrowed a USN Sikorsky HO3S-1 helicopter as a replacement for their Sea Otters while off Korea. By 1952 Westland Dragonflies became available to take over the SAR role.

Edit- the Sea Otter did get an arrester hook for carrier operations.

Edit 2 - by mid 1944 all RN seaplane / flying boat flights on cruisers and capital ships had been withdrawn. Hangar space as being converted for much more useful purposes, like AIO/ADR facilities, extra crew space on ships becoming badly overcrowded, and, if any space was left over, a cinema. So the ASR task passed back to the carriers.