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The F4F was a fat porker of an airplane. It would need a boat load more power to equal the P-39 in speed. However when turning at altitude (over 20,000ft?) it had a lower wing loading due to it's 20% bigger wing, it also had a lower power loading due the engine making 150-200more hp at these higher altitudes.It did have a two stage supercharger, the first in any production combat plane. Didn't seem to be as efficient as others. Look at the performance graphs, I stand by my statement about the P-39 being faster at all altitudes.
Regarding the P-40, it had the same engine as the P-39 and weighed 750# more (8400-7650). There is no physical way possible for the P-40 to have the same performance in climb or level speed. Physically impossible. Merlin P-40 was faster than the Allison P-40, but no faster then the P-39.
The 37mm cannon was better than most give it credit for. Yeager said the 37mm "had some trajectory" and was like "throwing a grapefruit". But the trajectory was not that bad inside the effective air to air gunnery range. Inside of about 400 yards the difference in the drop of the .50 caliber MGs and the 37mm cannon was negligible so you could fire all three at once. One strike from the 37mm cannon was usually deadly for anything it hit. Outside of 400 yards you were not likely to hit anything anyway. .
P-39N in production between December '42 and April '44 was faster and climbed faster at all altitudes than the Spitfire V. The Spitfire IX was superior in speed and climb to the P-39N and entered full series production about the same time. The comparison I'm making is between the P-39N and the German fighters. Everyone else seems to have me in an argument over the Spitfire.
Regarding fuel, the P-39N carried 120 internal and the Spitfire carried 100 US gallons. During N production the Russians requested that we start deleting the wing guns from the factory and reducing internal fuel capacity. The N and Q gradually reduced capacity to as little as 86 gallons. The wing guns stayed until the late Q models. Apparently less fuel and no wing armament worked for them.
From my point of view and what "P39" seems to miss about the Spitfire MkV being used in the discussion is that for long periods of 1942 the RAF didn't operate the Mk V over France because it was completely outclassed. A slight improvement on it was not what was needed. The Pas de Calais was where the Germans thought the Allies would land, indeed they did at Dieppe, it would always be contested by Germany with their best fighters for as long as they could. The Mk IX was better in many respects to the FW190 but the main point was it could get away.excusing the typo of the production date (N production ended in APril '43)
we are back to repeating ourselves over the P-39s fuel capacity and performance. You don't get both the 120 gal fuel capacity and the the high rate of climb. Pick one.
The argument with the Spitfire is your claim that the P-40N could out climb everything but a Spitfire MK IX and your rather absurd claim that the Spitfire IX wasn't in full production until very late 1942 ( I guess the 4 squadrons at Dieppe in Augs were just using dozens of the prototype MK IXs?).
Against the much older MK V your one test P-39N may be technically ahead, but not by much, if any, at certain altitudes and not enough to make a real difference even at 20-25,000ft.
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Gentlemen, some general comments about the P-39's tricycle landing gear and flying characteristics.................. so I take these comments with a grain of salt.
Regarding the March '44 date, most historians say that the Luftwaffe was beaten by that date. Otherwise how did we manage the D-Day invasion the first week of June? I did say the airwar was over by March '44, bad choice of words. The Luftwaffe was beaten by March. To the point that they had to hoard fighters to save them for any big battle they might foresee. They had not been wiped from the face of the earth, but they no longer could put up the most feeble fight without hoarding. They didn't have the fuel to fly them anyway.Many evaluations of the P-39 contradict that statement about stalls. and speaking about control reversal. On the P-39 with wing guns and full ammo loads the proper spin recovery use of ailerons was opposite the proper use of ailerons without or with light load of ammo.
You keep claiming one thing and then back tracking. It is true the P-47 couldn't turn with a 109 but the against the 190 it was not so clear cut. And an Aircobra trying to turn against a 109 may not be happy with the result so why pick on the P-47 to begin with?
A Mustang was supposed to be able to get home from the point where it dropped it's tanks and fought for 20 minutes over a distance of 460 miles. The rear tank extended the planning radius to 700 miles. Obviously there were a bunch of missions where the rear tank didn't need to be used or would work perfectly well if some fuel was burned off. A P-51D could do about 5 miles per gallon at 370mph true at 25,000ft. even 25 gallons was good for 125 miles.
You keep getting called on the March 1944 date. That may be the date at which point somebody/s decided the outcome was no longer in doubt, the timing of the outcome was not anywhere near certain and thousands of airmen (on both sides) died in the next year. The air war was hardly over.
And much of this is alleviated with proper training. If you "follow the numbers" there should never be an issue. Also be advised that these vicious tendencies may not happen as quickly as you think.Flying any plane on the brink of stall may not be easy and even if a plane is not vicious (rolling on it's back in the blink of eye ) a lack of stall warning can catch the unwary in a difficult position.
Now for many of these planes add 10% or more to approach speed in Pacific Island ( or North African) locations and add 10-20% to the landing run and the potential for landing accidents goes up.
Later planes (like P-47s) almost needed bomber airfields but by then the training was better and the landing fields were getting better on average.
Great chart. In 1942 the P-39 had a lower loss rate than the P-40 (351 vs 507). In 1943 the P-39 had a lower loss rate than the P-40 (228 vs 297). In 1944 the P-39 losses were greater than the P-40 (228 vs 127) but remember that by '44 the P-39 was the main advanced combat trainer and almost every fighter pilot flew a P39 in training. Would think that training accident rate would be higher than normal operating accident rate.www.taphilo.com/history/WWII/Loss-Figures-Aircraft-USA-Training.shtml
The accident rate per 100,000 hrs training/no of fatalities
P38 = 139/379
P39 = 245/395
P40 = 188/350
P47 = 127/455
P51 = 105/137
Looking at the table which is difficult to copy here, the P 39 was not only more likely to have an accident than the other types, if it had an accident it was more likely to be fatal.
All hearsay. Everything except the actual government/military tests are hearsay. Somebody said this or that and it may have been taken out of context.Whoa! Bell had to have been playing "Disingenuous" here. The idea that the possibility of aft CG stability issues never entered their minds, considering the unconventional layout of their bird begs credibility. And then to build a wing with no washout, thus guaranteeing a buffetless, violent stall? And whoever thought of not including the entire range of CG scenarios in flight testing?
IIUC, the purpose of the midships engine was to minimize polar moment of inertia and enhance agility. Any kindergartner can forsee that this will likely result in very light stick force gradients and a "twitchy" machine prone to over controlling and PIOs unless compensated for in the flight control linkages. Add that to the wobbly aft CG and the sharp stall characteristics, and you've got a tailor made "lieutenant loser". (The unintended Lomcevak is a free of charge fringe benefit! People pay good money at amusement parks across the land to experience thrills like that.)
It's hard to believe Bell would not have been aware of this, or that they would knowingly foist such a deathtrap on the government.
I've read here and there in dark ages of prehistory that USAAC Wright Pat forced a number of changes on Bell Aircraft to comply with some high ranking infantry officer in Procurement's concept of "improvements". IIRC, this included reducing the wing area to "go faster, like a GeeBee", adding a heavy radio behind the cockpit to talk to ground troops, and removing some bobweights from the elevator linkage and some other (don't remember) weight from the nose section.
Since we seem to have a P-39 expert in our midst, maybe he can enlighten us on this. Fact or fiction? And if fiction, any idea where that story came from?
Cheers,
Wes
Regarding the March '44 date, most historians say that the Luftwaffe was beaten by that date. Otherwise how did we manage the D-Day invasion the first week of June? I did say the airwar was over by March '44, bad choice of words. The Luftwaffe was beaten by March. To the point that they had to hoard fighters to save them for any big battle they might foresee. They had not been wiped from the face of the earth, but they no longer could put up the most feeble fight without hoarding. They didn't have the fuel to fly them anyway.
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As I said before the pilots were no match for the Japanese navy pilots. Our kids were green and the Japanese navy pilots were experienced. The P-39 (early heavy D,F,K and L) were all at least 30mph faster than the Zero at all altitudes. They were hard pressed to defend their base yet with all these disadvantages they managed a 1:1 kill ratio.P-39expert cites Attack and Conquer.
So will I. The 8th FG entered combat 30 April 1942 with P-39Ds and P-400s, within 5 days they had lost 9 pilots and 14 aircraft. Clearly, the pilots were no match for the Tainan AG. The P-39 lacked range to effectively bring battle to the enemy, and were hard pressed to defend their own air base. slow climb performance meant that with the short warning afforded the Port Moresby defenders, they often had no choice but to scramble out to sea to avoid being swatted down while in the climb. Trying to engage the Japanese while still in a climb was suicide as demonstrated by the 75 Sqn. RAAF.
The 8th and 35th FGs held the line in New Guinea during 1942, but suffered considerable losses.
The 80th FS was reequipped with P-38s and entered combat 30 March 1943. The P-38 was a game changer. As the book states, the 35th and 36th Fighter Squadrons continued to fly combat missions in spite of the fact that the P-38 was pushing the fight out of the radius of other fighter types. Both squadrons eventually re-equipped, The 35th got P-40Ns in late 43, and the 36th got some P-39Qs before converting to P-47s in early 44. Both eventually got P-38s
Best I can tell from the charts the P-51A and the P-39N (same engine in both) had about a 10mph difference at all altitudes. The P-39N being lighter than the P-51A climbed a lot faster..This may be true, that the P39 was faster than the P40 but it is an aerodynamic issue not weight, the P51B was faster by about 30MPH than a Spitfire with the same engine and heavier too. How did the P51 and P39 compare with identical engines?
The P-39 may very well have been easier to handle on the ground, very surprising if it wasn't, and some tail dragger US fighters had a few unique problems of their own, F4Fs for one.
However the transition from approach to actual wheels down may have been a problem?
The P-39 having a higher landing speed than most other (P-38 excepted) US 1942 fighters. While not bad compared to P-47s and late P-51s the P-39 may be 10-20mph faster than P-40s or the navy planes.
Flying any plane on the brink of stall may not be easy and even if a plane is not vicious (rolling on it's back in the blink of eye ) a lack of stall warning can catch the unwary in a difficult position.
Now for many of these planes add 10% or more to approach speed in Pacific Island ( or North African) locations and add 10-20% to the landing run and the potential for landing accidents goes up.
Later planes (like P-47s) almost needed bomber airfields but by then the training was better and the landing fields were getting better on average.
Okay, they were weakened to the point of curtailing operations to hoard their remaining planes for last ditch efforts. Definitely in a weakened and hopeless position, especially with Allied airpower reaching its maximum production. Plus no fuel to fly or even train. Call it what you want, they were done.Any historian who says that the Luftwaffe was defeated in March 1944 does not know the meaning of the word defeat.
Operation Steinbock was a German bombing campaign that ran from January to 29 May 1944
Operation Steinbock - Wikipedia
The last German aircraft to crash in the UK was a Ju 88 on the night of 3/4 March 1945, it was one of approximately 100 to infiltrate the RAF bomber stream 24 RAF planes were destroyed 9 damaged with 78 RAF personnel plus 17 civilians killed. The LW lost 22 aircraft with 12 damaged and 48 crew killed. You can say the LW was weakened and in a hopeless position but it wasn't completely defeated until the last days of the war.
Operation Gisela - Wikipedia
aircrashsites.co.uk/air-crash-sites-5/the-last-of-the-luftwaffe/
Certainly not in March 1944 not by a long way, fuel was a major issue especially after Bagration but in March 1944 they were not defeated and not "done".Okay, they were weakened to the point of curtailing operations to hoard their remaining planes for last ditch efforts. Definitely in a weakened and hopeless position, especially with Allied airpower reaching its maximum production. Plus no fuel to fly or even train. Call it what you want, they were done.
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I HAVE NEVER BACKTRACKED ON ANYTHING I HAVE POSTED HERE. Yes, acknowledged a few small errors, the airwar was not over in March, I meant to say the Luftwaffe was beaten in March. And the British themselves said the P-400 (one of the heaviest P-39 versions) would easily outturn an Me109E getting on it's tail in three turns.
The P-51 would try to swap ends with a full fuselage tank. Are you going to dispute everything I say? You have so far.
Not only Romans I knew an Italian bar maid who spoke like that too.De gustibus non est disputandum, ancient Romans used to say.