SHOULD the P39 have been able to handle the Zero? Was it training or performance?

[pbehn]

Makes a decent number doesn't it

By my reckoning almost as many late Merlin variants as the whole of P-39 production.

 

[Shortround6]

By the end of 1942 the Spitfire MK IX was in service with the following squadrons according to "The British Fighter" by Francis Mason.
No 64
No 72
No 81
No 122
No 133 (Eagle)
No 306 (Polish)
No 315 (Polish)
No 331 (Norwegian)
No 332 (Norwegian)
No 340 (French)
No 401 (Canadian)
No 402 (Canadian)
No 611 (Aux Af)

13 squadrons total?
I have no idea how many planes in each squadron or if they were fully operational.
Unless someone has proof to the contrary I would say that the notion that the Spitfire IX was only in use by 4 squadrons or production was being done at a low rate while operational testing was done seems to be in error.

 

[Milosh]

Spitfire production numbers can be found here, Spitfire - Main

 

[Milosh]

I have no idea how many planes in each squadron or if they were fully operational.
Unless someone has proof to the contrary I would say that the notion that the Spitfire IX was only in use by 4 squadrons or production was being done at a low rate while operational testing was done seems to be in error.

16 + 2 with 46 squadrons (all MKs) operational as of 1.1.43

oops forgot the link,
View: https://www.scribd.com/document/85616206/RAF-Strength-1939-45-Fighter-Bomber-Coastal-Commands-AIR-22

 

[pbehn]

By the end of 1942 the Spitfire MK IX was in service with the following squadrons according to "The British Fighter" by Francis Mason.
No 64
No 72
No 81
No 122
No 133 (Eagle)
No 306 (Polish)
No 315 (Polish)
No 331 (Norwegian)
No 332 (Norwegian)
No 340 (French)
No 401 (Canadian)
No 402 (Canadian)
No 611 (Aux Af)

13 squadrons total?
I have no idea how many planes in each squadron or if they were fully operational.
Unless someone has proof to the contrary I would say that the notion that the Spitfire IX was only in use by 4 squadrons or production was being done at a low rate while operational testing was done seems to be in error.

Good post S/R, by that time two Eagle squadrons 71, and 121 had transferred to the USAAF with their aircraft.

 

[pbehn]

Unless someone has proof to the contrary I would say that the notion that the Spitfire IX was only in use by 4 squadrons or production was being done at a low rate while operational testing was done seems to be in error.

Initial production was low at Supermarine with production starting at Castle Bromwich later.

 

[Shortround6]

Most new models start slow or at only one factory, but very few aircraft stall for a number of months with only a few squadrons using them.
Like having 4 squadrons in service in Aug and still having only 4-5 in service in Dec. A few planes did but they are rarities and well noted.

 

[Greg Boeser]

You repeatedly take a factoid and extrapolate it. The 4 squadrons were issued with the MK IX then received an uprated version about 8 months later, but that is about how long a plane was used or superseded in service. The three American "Eagle Squadrons were issued with Mk IXs in September 1942. The Mk V was not being produced anymore, the RAF rarely had more than 1000 front line fighters in service but used over 2000 per year, that is how quickly a front line fighter becomes obsolete, lost, damaged or just worn out.

From Wiki
Operating within the RAF were three "Eagle" squadrons: units manned by American pilots who had joined the RAF. First formed in 1940 and initially equipped with Hurricanes, these units converted to Spitfire Vbs in 1941. They were re-equipped with Spitfire IXs in early September 1942 and were disbanded in late-September 1942 as their aircrew and aircraft were transferred to the fledgling USAAF's Eighth Air Force to become the nucleus of the 4th Fighter Group.[70]

Hey, you missed the part where they were issued Brewster Buffalos!

 

[pbehn]

Most new models start slow or at only one factory, but very few aircraft stall for a number of months with only a few squadrons using them.
Like having 4 squadrons in service in Aug and still having only 4-5 in service in Dec. A few planes did but they are rarities and well noted.

Total production at Supermarine was only 557 A/C up to June 1943 when it stopped at Supermarine. Note with the MkIX, the Mk XVI was in principle identical but was with a Packard Merlin 1053 were made.. From something I posted earlier but can no longer find, the IX were used at Dieppe escorting B 17s which I would imagine would need some time training on the aircraft and training with the bombers.

 

[buffnut453]

By the end of 1942 the Spitfire MK IX was in service with the following squadrons according to "The British Fighter" by Francis Mason.
No 64
No 72
No 81
No 122
No 133 (Eagle)
No 306 (Polish)
No 315 (Polish)
No 331 (Norwegian)
No 332 (Norwegian)
No 340 (French)
No 401 (Canadian)
No 402 (Canadian)
No 611 (Aux Af)

13 squadrons total?
I have no idea how many planes in each squadron or if they were fully operational.
Unless someone has proof to the contrary I would say that the notion that the Spitfire IX was only in use by 4 squadrons or production was being done at a low rate while operational testing was done seems to be in error.

Standard equipment would be 12 Initial Equipment and 6 Immediate Reserve airframes. There was some variation due to losses or, occasionally, an excess of airframes on a particular squadron. However, a total of 18 machines is a good working average for an operationally-declared fighter squadron.

 

[Shortround6]

Thank you, I have only that account in that book and I don't want to read more into it than is there. Many squadrons got a least a few aircraft for training before being declared operational but the difference between 4 squadrons and 13 is substantial and should make up for any partially equipped squadrons.

 

[buffnut453]

In order to be declared operational, a squadron would need to have a full complement of the new aircraft. To do otherwise would greatly limit operational flexibility. The squadron would typically be withdrawn from the front line to be re-equipped and ensure the full complement of new airframes was fully trained and functioning. Naturally, there were exceptions due to operational contingencies but, by and large, you wouldn't have a mixed squadron of both MkVs and MkIXs for very long, if at all.

 

[wuzak]

There certainly WAS a gradually reduced capacity. The N started with 120 gallons and was gradually reduced in subsequent production blocks until the Q had as little as 86 with the full 120 gradually restored in subsequent production blocks. The 104 gallon figure refers to the fuel left after deducting the 16 gallons in the reserve tank, actually a part of the inside left wing tank. Self sealing rubber fuel tanks weighed 260# total for the 12 tanks.

Joe Baugher's site says only the first 166 P-30Ns had 120USG, the remainder having 87USG (plus some had a field kit to bring them back up to 120USG, but how many were?).

 

[wuzak]

Yes I DO get the 120 gallons with the high rate of climb. I'll stand by the P-39N test on 10-17-42 as being at the average weight of that particular flight. The weights listed on the official performance tests (not manifjold comparisons or propeller comparisons on the exact same plane ie weight is the same) all show the test article to be light by about half the weight of the internal fuel with full loads of ammo, oil etc. This was the AVERAGE weight of the plane on that particular flight.

Which is interesting for when you compare to Spitfire V tests.

The British method seems to have been to correct the measure performance back to 95% of take-off weight. So at higher loading than the P-39N figures you quote.

 

[pbehn]

Am I missing something with these tests? If a plane like a P39 uses 30% of its fuel to get to 25,000 ft what is the use of a test with half load? It will only have a sixth of a tank left when it gets there, just enough to get back safely.

 

[wuzak]

No, I was using data from here.
Supermarine Spitfire (late Merlin-powered variants) - Wikipedia
Mark Built by Numbers Built Notes
F VII, H.F VII Supermarine 140 First Mk VII September 1942
F VIII, L.F VIII Supermarine 1,658 First Mk VIII 11 November 1942
F IX, H.F IX, L.F IX Supermarine, Castle Bromwich 5,656 First Mk IX BR581 June 1942
PR X Supermarine 16 First Mk X May 1944
PR XI Supermarine 471 First Mk XI November 1942
XVI Castle Bromwich 1,054 First Mk XVI October 1944

The IX was supposed to be the "interim" 2 stage Merlin model, the definitive ones were to be the VII (high altitude with extended wing tips) and VIII.

Some early production VIIIs were converted to take the Griffon 61 in early 1943, becoming VIIIGs, essentially prototypes for the XIV.

The XIV was also regarded as interim, Supermarine at the time working on the new wing for the Spitfire 21.

The war situation often dictated the production of interim types over the developed versions, as they could quickly be put into production. That was definitely the case with the Spitfire IX, the early models being, basically, up-engined Vs.

The Mk.V was also a product of convenience. The Spitfire III was being developed around the Merlin XX in 1940. The III had superior performance to the V, which was essentially a Mk.I with a Merlin 45 fitted, but required more changes to the airframe and would have delayed production significantly.

 

[DarrenW]

From P-39N test report dated 17 October 1942:
Gross Weight at take-off was 7274 pounds....

How does "gross weight at take-off" EVER equate to "average weight"? I can see if it just simply said "weight" as that leaves some ambiguity, but this? Are you sure you don't want to change your mind about this???

 

[parsifal]

RAF (and CW) fighter squadrons through to the end of 1942 had 18-22 a/c on hand including their reserves. There were normally normally 12 operational. In periods of sustained operations squadrons listed as ready could possess an average operational strength of between 6 and 9 aircraft and still be listed as "ready".

In 1943 through to the end of the war the "establishment" strength was increased to 24 aircraft. I reasonably certain this included reserve aircraft, though I have read in some sources that this was the frontline strength, with up to 6 additional in reserve.

An RAF squadron 1943and on was a fairly meaty formation.

 

[BiffF15]

P39,

I'm a little confused here so help me out. Your driving point here is that the Airacobra should have been used quite differently than it was. It, according to you had quite an impressive climb rate to about 20k, was nimble (as long as CG was forward), was short legged, and had good ground handling characteristics.

Sounds good except in SWP it couldn't get to the fight except in extreme circumstances on the offensive due to short legs, and in the defense role when scrambled could not get above the Zeros for an offensive bounce.

In the ETO / MTO it didn't have the legs or altitude capability required to escort the bomber stream which would regulate it to a CAS role. In that role you have a choice between it or a P47. The latter could be reconfigured for escort tomorrow (multi-role or multi-use) which oh by the way could drop down and go hunting for targets of opportunity on the long ride home increasing damage inflicted on the enemy.

Even today kids going to fly fighters get topped off in the AT-38C prior to showing up at their respective FTUs (Fighter Replacement Units or AKA school houses). In WW2 they put them in P39s and P40s to get them more experienced prior to arriving in theater. The reason those aircraft were chosen was availablity. The reason those aircraft were available was for some reason they were not as combat effective as other assets that were on hand.

Please show me where I'm wrong. When doing so please follow the general forum rules of no one person accounts or claims.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[P-39 Expert]

By the end of 1942 the Spitfire MK IX was in service with the following squadrons according to "The British Fighter" by Francis Mason.
No 64
No 72
No 81
No 122
No 133 (Eagle)
No 306 (Polish)
No 315 (Polish)
No 331 (Norwegian)
No 332 (Norwegian)
No 340 (French)
No 401 (Canadian)
No 402 (Canadian)
No 611 (Aux Af)

13 squadrons total?
I have no idea how many planes in each squadron or if they were fully operational.
Unless someone has proof to the contrary I would say that the notion that the Spitfire IX was only in use by 4 squadrons or production was being done at a low rate while operational testing was done seems to be in error.

Yes I guess I read that wrong in wwiiaircraftperformance. Still, 13 squadrons with 18 planes per squadron (12 plus 8 reserve) is still only 234 planes. Certainly more than my "service test" estimate but still not a lot of production for 6 months (July-Dec "42).