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Bell P-39 Airacobra - Wikipedia
A total of 149 P-39s would be used: the P-39N for training, while newer Qs were used in the front line....
You see, even the Italians realized how inadequate the P-39N was and relegated it to non-combat units!
Not really, plenty of planes fought at altitudes well above WEP or it's equivalent. Think Spitfire Is and 12lbs boost in the BoB,
However the later P-39s were over 7000lb airplanes with around 770-780hp at 25,000ft (including RAM). And in 1943 that puts you behind the curve.
Agreed, I did not mean to leave out/insult the many contributors that make far more informative posts than I, I merely used that as a prime example of the caliber of knowledge on this board. I've read and studied aviation history since the 1960's ( basically all my life ) but do not feel I have much to contribute here, I check my ego at the door and have learned a lot, which is daunting considering what I thought I knew when I first got here. Many of you have been extremely patient with my many dumb questions and for that you have my thanks.It is not only Drgondog's posts but others too. For example, Bill Runnels longest mission he said was 11 1/2 hours. The P 51 was considered a miracle because it could complete 6 hr missions. That huge difference in time plus the huge difference in speed of a fighter and bomber meant wave after wave of escorts handing over to each other, all of which needs fuel and all of which needs a contingency to avoid the FUBAR of a bomb group over Germany with no escort. Oh and did I mention the Bombers didn't have a "target" (sometimes listed by Stona), they had a list in case the priority target was obscured. No escort ever set course for the target, on many missions only about 20% even went there.
The upside of the P-39 in general is that it was available from the start of WWII along with the P-40 and F4F Wildcat. That was all we had for combat until the P-38 Lightning got into combat very late that year. As the P-38 was entering combat in the Pacific and Mediterranean the much improved P-39N was beginning production and around 2000 were completed before the line switched to the Q model in April '43. N and Q were almost exactly alike differing only in wing armament. Since the Russians removed the wing armament on the P-39s the N and Q were basically the same plane. 7000+ planes built to this standard between 12/42 and 8/44. Seems to me that a little weight reduction by the AAF would have improved these models like the Russians did. I'm comparing the P-39N to other planes in combat in 1943, like the P-38, P-40, P-47 (May '43), Hellcat (Aug '43), Corsair (Feb '43), FW190, Me109G, Zero and Oscar. The two stage Merlin P-51 only saw combat from Dec '43. The Spitfire IX had the same Merlin engine as the P-51B but weighed 2500# less than a P-51D so its climb rate was absolutely amazing and significantly higher than any of these planes. Great plane if you wanted to go to Belgium and back.So, you have a VERY short range aircraft with armament that includes useless .30 cal and 37mm gun(s), an altitude performance that in no way comes close to the P-47 and P-38, not to mention the P-51. It can't land on or take off from aircraft carriers. What's the upside of the P-39N?
Talking about the Allison, no sir, WEP (in the US) was combat emergency power and extremely hard on the engine requiring the crew chief to do extensive maintenance prior to the next flight. There was a little wire or seal across the throttle and if you went past that into WEP your friend the crew chief had a lot of extra work to do and usually some candid comments for the pilot. Engines were recommended to be CHANGED after only 10 hours at WEP (only good for 5 minutes at a time). Takeoff and Military power were limited to 5 minutes (15 minutes after mid '42) and extra maintenance was not required.Surely using maximum rpm and wide open throttle counts as WEP, even when above FTH?
Before the Spitfire Is were allowed +12psi boost, WEP was at +9psi boost and FTH was higher. So, surely that is still WEP?
Some concepts are complex and difficult to absorb at first. It is essential to proceed step-by-step.The upside of the P-39 in general is that it was available from the start of WWII along with the P-40 and F4F Wildcat. .
Can we please use the normal 120 gallon internal capacity? PLEASE. The 87 gallon capacity was at the request of the Russians and only used on some N and Qs. A SPITFIRE had more range than a P-39 with 87 gallons.I would note that short ranged as the P-47C was it had roughly double the range of an 87 gallon Aircobra at similar low speeds.
In fact an 87 gallon Aircobra was roughly equal in range to the P-47C when using a 75 gallon drop tank.
Trouble is the drop tank knocked about 30mph indicated off the airspeed.
See post #707. WEP was almost dangerously hard on the engine, military power was available at the fighting altitudes.No WEP at the altitude at which you want to fight?
Wouldn't that mean you are pretty muck fucked?
By all means and compare it to the Normal internal capacity of the P 51A of 180 gals, and the P51B of 268 galls. Did I mention that the Mustang Mk1 was the first allied single engine fighter to enter German airspace, in 1942.Can we please use the normal 120 gallon internal capacity? PLEASE. The 87 gallon capacity was at the request of the Russians and only used on some N and Qs. A SPITFIRE had more range than a P-39 with 87 gallons.
The 110 gallon drop tank was in extensive use with the 8th AF in England and in the Pacific.
But basically, for the US, critical altitude is the altitude at which the throttle is fully open and the supercharger is supplying the rated amount of pressure (mass of air).
But you keep wanting to use the performance of the 87 gal versions.Can we please use the normal 120 gallon internal capacity? PLEASE. The 87 gallon capacity was at the request of the Russians and only used on some N and Qs. A SPITFIRE had more range than a P-39 with 87 gallons.
The 110 gallon drop tank was in extensive use with the 8th AF in England and in the Pacific.
It would be my understanding that there would be a decreasing level of power from 18,500ft to 22,500ft as the MAP fell from 60" to 52" in this case.Great explanation Shortround6, it helps me to further understand engine ratings. I've noticed that critical altitude with the application of WEP can be significantly lower than it would be without it's use. For example, let's say you are able to safely develop 60" Hg of manifold pressure at 18,500 feet, which is the critical altitude in high blower. But without WEP you are limited to 52" Hg and with this setting you reach critical altitude in high blower at 22,500 feet. Now would I be correct to say that, although the critical altitude while in WEP is 4,000 feet lower, the engine could still produce more horsepower at 22,500 feet than if I just kept manifold pressure at the 52" Hg setting at that altitude? Or in this case does the use of WEP serve no useful purpose above the 18,500 foot altitude?
I hope my question isn't too wordy or hard to understand.....
I'm comparing the P-39N to other planes in combat in 1943, like the P-38, P-40, P-47 (May '43), Hellcat (Aug '43), Corsair (Feb '43), FW190, Me109G, Zero and Oscar.
It would be my understanding that there would be a decreasing level of power from 18,500ft to 22,500ft as the MAP fell from 60" to 52" in this case.
No extra power at 22,500ft but perhaps 56" of pressure at 20,500ft giving about 1/2 the power difference of the WEP at 18.5 and the military power at 22.5.
Hope that helps.
In the case of water injection it sometimes helps above the critical altitude of the blower as it does make the charge denser by helping cool it.
Back at you dude.Well it looks like the climb rate of the P-39Q loaded to 7,200lbs can be equaled or even bested by the F6F-3 under similar WEP conditions. But seeing that it's not the N model, does this even count?
F6F-3:
View attachment 487513
P-39Q:
View attachment 487514
Shortstop, I really appreciate you challenging EVERY SINGLE STATEMENT that I make. Thanks.Changing the goal posts?
Original statement.
"Earlier D, F, K and L had the 12000' engines, the M, N and Q had the 15000' engines that were about 100hp better at all altitudes."
Now we have " just about 100hp difference at every altitude."
I don't know what college or degree you have but in most of the world being 100hp below, while being a difference, is in no way, shape or form
better.
the chart is also for WEP power.
A digression I know but of all the 747's that were built onlyOf course it was there was a war on, everything goes quicker in war time. Now tell me a time between 1939 and 45 when the Spitfire didn't need a better engine, a better field of view, better wings, better armament and better cooling. Of the thousands produced I doubt the maximum of any type that was completely identical apart from paintwork (squadron markings) was only a few hundred.
A little picky I know but PR Spits flew over germany more or less from the startBy all means and compare it to the Normal internal capacity of the P 51A of 180 gals, and the P51B of 268 galls. Did I mention that the Mustang Mk1 was the first allied single engine fighter to enter German airspace, in 1942.
Back at you dude.