SHOULD the P39 have been able to handle the Zero? Was it training or performance?
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wuzak
Captain
You can see the pilot looking into the sky, seeing a Spitfire V and wistfully thinking "I wish I had one of them".
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
It is very nice artwork indeed but having the Airacobra pilots caught on the ground during an attack isn't the best way to convey a fighter plane's supposed prowess IMHO....
buffnut453
Captain
Perhaps not...but, then again, an aircraft getting caught on the ground has nothing to do with the performance of the aircraft and everything to do with the intelligence, early warning and C3 capabilities.
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
I agree. But to promote your favorite plane I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't pick an avatar with the Oscar shooting down the Buffalo, now would you? Even though it happened on occasion, through no fault of the pilot or aircraft involved....
Even though it happened on occasion, through no fault of the pilot or aircraft involved....
buffnut453
Captain
The original of my avatar actually has one Ki-43 being downed but at least 3 Buffalos being shot down...so it's pretty balanced.
I also accept that joe public in general wouldn't comprehend the niceties of air raid warning.
I also accept that joe public in general wouldn't comprehend the niceties of air raid warning.
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
The original of my avatar actually has one Ki-43 being downed but at least 3 Buffalos being shot down...so it's pretty balanced.
I also accept that joe public in general wouldn't comprehend the niceties of air raid warning.
Oh sorry to hear that, wish it went better for the Buffalos!
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
This is one of my all time favorites from Revell.
parsifal
Colonel
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
Thanks Parsifal for the link, it's awesome! Brings back some really nice memories for me.....
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
For those who haven't found it yet:
The Box Art Den
The Box Art Den
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
A big reason why the climb for the N is a lot better than older P-39s is the increase from 5 minutes to 15 minutes for military power rating. This happened mid '42 along with finally discarding the port backfire screens. This increase to 15 minutes apparently was for other engines too since this is reflected in the P-47 (R2800) tests.
With the 5 minute limit the engine power had to be reduced from 3000rpm (take off/military) to 2600rpm (max. continuous) after 5 minutes. Climb was a lot slower since HP was reduced. This is on all the charts of the P-38, P-39, P-40, P-47 and P-51 (Allison models). Once the limit was increased to 15 minutes the climb for all those planes was greatly improved above the 5 minute mark. If this was retroactive to the older engines (like WEP) then those P-39D, F, K, and L would have been greatly improved also.
Oddly the climb test was a straight climb from takeoff up to the service ceiling. Good for tests, but in actual practice if the pilot was at combat power (3000rpm) and during that 5 minutes had to climb he didn't reduce power to 2600rpm for the climb. So the tests actually understated climb after the first 5 minutes.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
All P-39s were faster than all Zeros by about 40mph at all altitudes. Climb on the older models was not as fast above 12000' on the test graphs, but at 3000rpm it climbed as fast at all altitudes. Due to circumstances the P-39 was used mostly in the defensive role in '42 at Moresby and Guadalcanal so range wasn't as big a consideration.
The P-38 is considered to have excellent range. It held 150gal/engine internal. The P-39 held 120. After deducting the Reserve (for T/O and climb to 5000') of 25gal for the P-38 and 16 gal for the P-39 the useable fuel for both planes was 125 for the P-38 and 104 for the P-39. 21 whole gallons. The P-38 had a 165 gallon drop tank/engine and the P-39 had drop tanks of 75gal, 110, 158 and 175gal available. Range could have been increased to P-38 levels if needed.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Edwards Park in his factual book "Angels Twenty" indicates use of the 110gal drop tank as standard. On a couple of interception missions at Moresby he talks of climbing to 24000' to intercept the Bettys and Zeros with his 110gal drop tank attached. Upon contact with the enemy they dropped their tanks and he says his P-39 felt "light as a feather, wonderfully agile and responsive. I would have loved to have flown it for a little while to enjoy it, but (his flight leader) was dropping his nose toward that (enemy) formation...". Why intercept incoming bombers with a drop tank? Seems odd, but virtually every mission was with drop tanks and the P-39s were loaded that way for those missions.
Park was actually there as a 2nd Leutenant pilot, so his experiences were actual fact. He wrote a second book, "Nanette" which covered the same material but was fiction and contained all of the outrageous stories he had heard about other pilots in NG. Quite funny and entertaining. Both books were a capsule of everyday life for those guys serving in NG and a fun read.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Sorry, but I'm not going away. I'll keep giving you the facts as long as you want to listen.And I thank you. It's been entertaining to say the least. So are you ready to capitulate and admit that your hypothesis regarding the P-39N's worth was overstated or will you continue to drag this on and on with no end in sight?
Shortround6
Major General
Sorry, but I'm not going away. I'll keep giving you the facts as long as you want to listen.
Then give us facts, not stories like the British deliberately overloaded their P-39s with armor and guns to get out of a contract, (and Bell was dumb enough to agree to such a change in contract talks).
drgondog
Major
In actual Practice, the time to climb test was at maximum power available by the 'book' - and does not understate anything. That specific test was performed to get an idea what the airplane could be expected to do for the weight and balance conditions cited in the test.
The primary reason was to gauge interception capability and often flown in AAF 'Fighter Condition' of reduced fuel and ammo and no external stores.
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
Actually I read an article by a pilot who flew Spit V's in the Med. On his first flight just after takeoff he got intercepted by a P-39 and got "shot down" multiple times while he was trying to build up some airspeed.
Of course, if he had been flying a Clipped and Cropped Spitfire V it might have been a different story.
I love that P-39 artwork partially because it reminds me so much of a cover from a "Men's" magazine I saw in the 60's Very similar kind of a painting, a P-39 pilot opening the door and entering his airplane as enemy aircraft approach in the sky. Except that also scrambling into their Airacobras in the background were a bunch of beautiful scantily clad women.
Of course, if he had been flying a Clipped and Cropped Spitfire V it might have been a different story.
I love that P-39 artwork partially because it reminds me so much of a cover from a "Men's" magazine I saw in the 60's Very similar kind of a painting, a P-39 pilot opening the door and entering his airplane as enemy aircraft approach in the sky. Except that also scrambling into their Airacobras in the background were a bunch of beautiful scantily clad women.
wuzak
Captain
I can see how the time to altitude would be reduced by this, but peak rate of climb should be unchanged.
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