The best Soviet fighter had the same wing loading as Fw 190A-8 (240 kg/m2)
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The best Soviet fighter had the same wing loading as Fw 190A-8 (240 kg/m2)Only the Russian planes featured even smaller wings, but they were also a lot lighter.
In the early/mid 30s there was a lot of transition. It there was also a lot scheming to get around patents.When one discusses German fighter high wing loading we must be talking about the Bf109. Surprisingly no mention has been made on the Handley Page leading edge slats on the 109 wing and their design to allow a smaller wing to be used.
When Willy was designing the 109 he went with the smallest frontal area and tightest smallest & lightest low drag package to fit the inline water cooled engine. A trade off was made to incorporate the leading edge slats to reduce the wing area while still allowing for a low enough landing speed. A smaller wing being lighter and with less drag with the benefit of a higher speed.
When one looks at the competition for the Luftwaffe fighter contract in 1935, two of the proposals, Arado Ar 80 & Focke-Wulf Fw 159, were still a transitional designs from the biplane era, although both were monoplanes. The Heinkel He 112 was too complex but the contract was not given to them due to previous bomber contracts. So the 109 won by default.
During the 109 production run much effort was made not to disrupt the production line so the wing did not appreciably change over production run.
Informative post and the Gugnunc is a really pretty little thing.In the early/mid 30s there was a lot of transition. It there was also a lot scheming to get around patents.
There is an awful lot of confusion (at best) or dishonesty (at worst) about the slats on the 109.
Slats do several things, what the major effect is depends on size (amount of span) of the slats which affects the area of the wing the airflow from the slats act on. Handley Page obviously knew a lot about slats and stuck them on just about anything the company made during the 20s and most of the 30s.
The original goal was to increase aileron effectiveness at low speed/high angles of attack. Planes going into spins was a very common accurance in early flight with often fatal results.
Slats (and slots) showed up before the common use of Flaps and even flaps changed quite a bit is just a few years in the mid 30s. Early flaps did very little to increase lift at low speeds.
What they did was increase drag (air brake) and increased the glide slope. They shortened the approach or cut down the amount of time/distance the plane 'floated' over the runway.
However small changes in pitch could affect how the airflow over the wings flowed over the ailerons and while the wing overall might still be providing lift (not stalled just yet) the rear part of the wing where the ailerons were had disturbed airflow and might be stalling. Loosing lateral control at low speed and low altitude usually meant a crash as there was no time/altitude to recover.
Getting back to the slats.
Handley Page Gugnunc 1929.
View attachment 773026
Notice the almost full span slot/s. Which were not used on many aircraft. Like the HP. 42
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Okay, I think you've had enough to drink.... vozdooshnogo.....
It's oil cooling system was unusual but a single bullet through a P-51D's radiator was just as damaging.The He 100 was a speed record plane. It could not be a fully operational fighter, and that was quickly realized by everyone who had the opportunity to examine it thoroughly (the Japanese and the Soviets). The He 100 was no real threat to the RAF - it was too vulnerable (especially, its oil cooling system) even taking into account its high flight performance.
The Soviets were impressed too and purchased several copies of He 100. But after a thorough examination they came to the conclusion that it was not an airplane for a real air combat. The cooling system was not only vulnerable, but also suffered from vibrations. Therefore, the installation of a 20mm motor-gun was considered as unlikely by the Soviets, moreover, they believed that even a rifle-caliber motor-gun was already too heavy for the plane.It's oil cooling system was unusual but a single bullet through a P-51D's radiator was just as damaging.
And the Japanese thought well enough of the He100 to purchase several.
The Soviets toyed with evaporative cooling before purchasing the He100.The Soviets were impressed too and purchased several copies of He 100. But after a thorough examination they came to the conclusion that it was not an airplane for a real air combat. The cooling system was not only vulnerable, but also suffered from vibrations. Therefore, the installation of a 20mm motor-gun was considered as unlikely by the Soviets, moreover, they believed that even a rifle-caliber motor-gun was already too heavy for the plane.
Every airplane with a water-cooled engine is vulnerable. But even when the radiator is damaged, it takes time for the water to evaporate - the same concerns the vapor condensers in the wing à la He 100, but the _oil_ was cooled by _alcohol_, which evaporates much faster, and the system itself was located where a hit was most likely.
The Soviets discontinued all experiments with evaporative cooling after studying the He 100, where this system had been developed to a high level of perfection.
I know in detail about Soviet experiments with evaporative cooling - and not only Ilyushin's. Thus, the Stal'-6 of Bartini's design was flying already in 1933. But the I-21 was probably the most unsuccessful project of Ilyushin, who did not like to mention this airplane at all.The Soviets toyed with evaporative cooling before purchasing the He100.
The Ilyushin IL-21 predated their acquisition of the He100 by three years and were more interested in the aircraft design than the various cooling systems in the "V" series prototypes they recieved.
Before the war, evap. cooling was tried by the French, British and other nations and it was found to be too complex for.the desired results.
However, the technology is still in use today by air-racers.
There was a thread some years ago arguing that the Ki 61 engine mount was a copy of the He 100 design Ki-61 and He-100 related?.I know in detail about Soviet experiments with evaporative cooling - and not only Ilyushin's. Thus, the Stal'-6 of Bartini's design was flying already in 1933. But the I-21 was probably the most unsuccessful project of Ilyushin, who did not like to mention this airplane at all.
Nevertheless, the He 100 demonstrated to the Soviets that even a very perfect evaporative cooling system was not sufficiently resistant to combat damage. In addition, they noted a number of fundamental design flaws - such as the engine mount.
Plane....................weight/lbs...............................wing area..........................lbs/sq/ftDid the Bf 109A as originally designed have particularly high wing loading for a 700 BHPstressed skinmonoplane?
A few years back there was a question about the slats and we were working on an Ha.1112 (still are ... actually, it is sitting just now not being worked on). I measured them and they take up about almost exactly 1/3 span if you include the fuselage width and are placed to keep the airflow improvement more or less mostly over the ailerons. This helps maintain aileron control during a stall, but also causes directional snaking if they deploy asymmetrically. Since there is no rudder trim, they usually deploy a bit asymmetrically.In the early/mid 30s there was a lot of transition. It there was also a lot scheming to get around patents.
There is an awful lot of confusion (at best) or dishonesty (at worst) about the slats on the 109.
Slats do several things, what the major effect is depends on size (amount of span) of the slats which affects the area of the wing the airflow from the slats act on. Handley Page obviously knew a lot about slats and stuck them on just about anything the company made during the 20s and most of the 30s.
The original goal was to increase aileron effectiveness at low speed/high angles of attack. Planes going into spins was a very common accurance in early flight with often fatal results.
Slats (and slots) showed up before the common use of Flaps and even flaps changed quite a bit is just a few years in the mid 30s. Early flaps did very little to increase lift at low speeds.
What they did was increase drag (air brake) and increased the glide slope. They shortened the approach or cut down the amount of time/distance the plane 'floated' over the runway.
However small changes in pitch could affect how the airflow over the wings flowed over the ailerons and while the wing overall might still be providing lift (not stalled just yet) the rear part of the wing where the ailerons were had disturbed airflow and might be stalling. Loosing lateral control at low speed and low altitude usually meant a crash as there was no time/altitude to recover.
Getting back to the slats.
Handley Page Gugnunc 1929.
View attachment 773026
Notice the almost full span slot/s. Which were not used on many aircraft. Like the HP. 42
View attachment 773027
The slots pretty much affect only the airflow on the outer portion of the upper wing where the alerions are.
Grumman TBFs used fixed slots to maintain alerion control at low speeds.
Willy and the boys could use short span slots to maintain aileron control low speeds (and in high speed turns) and use a smaller wing because they didn't need quite as much safety margin above the stall to keep control. Willy and boys were also using a different flap set up than Mitchell.
View attachment 773028
Jumo powered version with radiator under the engine. The wing flap may have gone lower, I don't know but it obviously could use less angle than the Spitfire. Spitfires had a choice of no flap or full flap which was 85 degree drop from the wing. The Spitfire flap was an airbrake. The 109 Flap was changing the camber of the wing/airflow. The Spitfire?
View attachment 773029
That will slow the plane down and change the glide ratio (rate of sink) but it doesn't do much for lift.
And yet the 109 slats, that affect a bit under 1/2 the overall span of the wing and well under 1/2 the wing area get all the credit?
Mitchell and his boys used washout
View attachment 773030
so that the wing roots stalled before the wing tips and helped maintain aileron control at/just above stall (and they didn't have to pay royalties to HP)
Willy and the boys had a pretty good idea how the 109 wing would act.
View attachment 773031
Bf 108 first flown in 1934. Willy and the boys were using very modern developments and were ahead of much of the competition.
But short span slats are not magic and the Willy and the boys were not using them as magic. They were using them in combination with the flaps to get desired results.
Thanks for the link to an interesting topic!There was a thread some years ago arguing that the Ki 61 engine mount was a copy of the He 100 design Ki-61 and He-100 related?.