Spitfire Mk.XIV vs P-51D Mustang

[drgondog]

IMO - the single niche that the P-51B/C/D filled that was out of the Spitfire XIV and say, XXI, was long range air superiority day fighter. What made the Mustang a weapon system of choice was near equal manueverability to Me 109, Spit and Fw 190 but vastly greater strategic and tactical footprint. After the war my father had some rat races with some XIV's and won some, lost some - but reckoned the wins were based on his experience and skill more than superiority of the Mustang. I also might note that he shut down air to air engagements with the 355th because two fatal accidents (high speed stall/inverted spin) occurred with low time 355th pilots against the RAF Spit XIV. He never flew one but wanted to.

 

[Readie]

I have to agree, it becomes personal prefrence at some point and I have had a thing for the spit from the time I was a wee lad and my Mom would read me to sleep from a book on the BoB. It had drawings of the Spitfire Mk 1 and my dreams were filled with daring do over the channel at the controls of a spit. I am an old man today but I still have dreams...but I digress, what about throwing the P47 into the mix? I know she's not real pretty but with a 2K HP + engine and 8!!! .50 cal guns, she's got roughly the same rate of fire as a modern 20 MM. electric gattling gun! Point that at ANY aircraft in WWII and what you get from 1 second burst on target is hard to argue with. The gun camaras from the P47 during WWII confirm targets (including bombers)shredding in the air. Great book called "Thunderbolt!" by P47 ace that recounts his experience with this fantastic aircraft. What do you all think?



Cheers!
Lee

Hi Lee, I quite agree comparing the Spitfire and Mustang is an emotive call and will only end in an argument.
The Spitfire has a special place in our hearts here for reasons I have gone on about in earlier threads and my admiration is well known.
However, trying to be rational (for once lol) I have to be subjective and see each plane for its worth and contribution to the allied efforts in WW2.
P47 ? Big brutal and tough as old boots. The plane for the job at the right time.
Cheers
John

 

[GriffonSpit]

Hello Glider,
Well to an extent this is true but having said that the early spitfire was uniquely suited to the BoB (A large percent of dog fighting happened right over British soil) Not so far to travel so advantage R.A.F. as much as I don't like to admit it the Hurricane did the majority of Luftwaffe downing at this critical time. So of the two planes, the Hurricane was the most pivotal in the actual outcome (of The BoB). The stats are far inferior to the Spit so what in the world? Well one of the things that I love about the Spit was also a great handicap. It is arguably the most astatically pleasing aircraft ever made. I see it as equal parts function and high art. But those multitude of compound lines come at a high price during wartime. The Spitfire requires far more hand shaping and fitting (read time) to manufacture than most of its contemporaries. Which of course means less Spitfires and more easier to assemble <other> aircraft. The thing that <mostly> made up for the somewhat limited range even more than home field advantage was the British Chain Home system. I think more than any other factor that was what sealed the fate of the Luftwaffe in the BoB. So distance makes the difference in fighter aggressor or defender? Well what if I fly my Spit to liberated France, land and refuel? I know what you are saying though it's the difference between a B17 and a B29 (Distance wise that is)
Anyway thats' me taking the long way to my point which is really just this: In a dog fight which plane is not of as great a consequence as which pilot. Am I saying the plane you fly makes no difference? Not at all. What I am saying is WHO is flying has much more impact on the outcome than what is being flown. I know of many examples of a superior pilot flying a decidedly inferior aircraft and consistently making the kill. When he does get a superior aircraft it is just icing. I am sure you all know of examples of this as well.
John...yes I like it, big brutish and tough as old boots!
Drgondog..I wish he had as well, it would be great to hear of that comparison from a WWII pilot <as a side note I read an account of P47 driver who switched planes with a Spitfire pilot during the war. They both got some great insights from the <illegal> experience!!>
So anyone think a Spitfire with an official variant to modify wing spars to carry beer during WWII is the ULTIMATE warbird? I mean really how can you possibly even come close to that!!
Cheers!!
Lee

 

[Readie]

Lee,
Quite right about the Hurricane in the BoB. The Spitfire was the ultimate interceptor /defence fighter and did what she was designed to do (and some).
The Spitfire also became a symbol for the British at a rather trying time.
Here legend and fact get intertwined (rather like King Arthur) and how much you subscribe to the legends is an personal thing. All I would say ( before I get carried away) is that a Spitfire is one of the very few historic aircraft that all ages point at and crane their necks to watch when one flies over and, if you are lucky performs a display over your home town. The thunder of of a Merlin is quite something.
Cheers
John

 

[Balljoint]

The thunder of of a Merlin is quite something.
John

I may be prejudiced since I grew up with navy planes –Glenview Navel Air Station- in Chicago during and after the war, but the Merlin sounds a bit like a dozen really big, loud synchronized mower engines with the individual stack exhausts. The prop and other aero sounds are usually great though. And the thunder for sure, particularly with the old hydroplanes.

The engines with a manifold and collector for multiple cylinders just sound better to my ear.

 

[drgondog]

I may be prejudiced since I grew up with navy planes –Glenview Navel Air Station- in Chicago during and after the war, but the Merlin sounds a bit like a dozen really big, loud synchronized mower engines with the individual stack exhausts. The prop and other aero sounds are usually great though. And the thunder for sure, particularly with the old hydroplanes.

The engines with a manifold and collector for multiple cylinders just sound better to my ear.

Your mother must have dropped you accidentally on your head as an infant. If there is a better engine sound than a merlin 65 or 1650-7 at 3000 rpm - I haven't found it in 67 years of high intensity exposure to the fighters. The only one that comes close to me is the drone of a SAC B-36's six 4360's during the 50's. That was a security blanket sound.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Hello Glider,
Well to an extent this is true but having said that the early spitfire was uniquely suited to the BoB (A large percent of dog fighting happened right over British soil) Not so far to travel so advantage R.A.F. as much as I don't like to admit it the Hurricane did the majority of Luftwaffe downing at this critical time.

An oft-repeated mistaken use of statistics, since the difference was actually quite small. Latest figures show that 19 Spitfire squadrons shot down 530 aircraft (average 28,) while 30 Hurricane squadrons shot down 655 (average 22.5.) Also, of the Spitfire victories 282 were 109s, while 222 109s went down to the Hurricane. Of course, the old saying that "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" holds as good as ever, so each proponent of each aircraft will use them his/her own way.

 

[Milosh]

A Griffon sounds better than a Merlin.

 

[fastmongrel]

A Griffon sounds better than a Merlin.

I have heard both engines running on ground stands and all I can say is

the Merlin is a classy dame you would take home to meet your Mother

whilst the Griffon is a head banging rock chick who would do naughty things to you

 

[drgondog]

The head banging rock chicks are way past my prime but the classy ladies I brought home to mother fit the head bamging chick as described.. its all a matter of packaging.

 

[Glider]

Hello Glider,
What I am saying is WHO is flying has much more impact on the outcome than what is being flown. I know of many examples of a superior pilot flying a decidedly inferior aircraft and consistently making the kill. When he does get a superior aircraft it is just icing. I am sure you all know of examples of this as well.

No one would deny that the pilot is the biggest variable but for this one vs another we have to assume equal skill. I think I said this earlier in the thread but one quote I remember reading was:-
if you were the pilot flying into a combat you would take the Spitfire, if you were the commander in charge of a campaign you would want the P51. I wish I could find that quote as it sums it up for me

The P51's range gave you strategic options a Spitfire could never give, but in a straight fight its the Spitfire

So anyone think a Spitfire with an official variant to modify wing spars to carry beer during WWII is the ULTIMATE warbird? I mean really how can you possibly even come close to that!!

There was the UAAF cook in the Pacific who put all the ingrediants into an (unused) drop tank, told the pilot to fly high and throw the aircraft around, When he landed it was ice creams all round.

 

[tomo pauk]

Soviet pilots were said to pack the 'Spam' cans in the P-39's ammo boxes and fly them via ALSIB route. Guess the 'Spam' tasted the Soviet soldiers even better than ice cream tasted to the US soldiers.

 

[Readie]

A Griffon sounds better than a Merlin.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTZAfXta7ww

I rest my case

Cheers

John

 

[Balljoint]

Your mother must have dropped you accidentally on your head as an infant. If there is a better engine sound than a merlin 65 or 1650-7 at 3000 rpm - I haven't found it in 67 years of high intensity exposure to the fighters. The only one that comes close to me is the drone of a SAC B-36's six 4360's during the 50's. That was a security blanket sound.

According to my chamber-music-loving friends, I'm a philistine of high rank and long standing. For multiple engines, I'd go with a compounded Connie just overhead while taking off from a short runway.
Of course my hearing isn't it once was. Probably those darn kids and their loud music.

 

[GriffonSpit]

An oft-repeated mistaken use of statistics, since the difference was actually quite small. Latest figures show that 19 Spitfire squadrons shot down 530 aircraft (average 28,) while 30 Hurricane squadrons shot down 655 (average 22.5.) Also, of the Spitfire victories 282 were 109s, while 222 109s went down to the Hurricane. Of course, the old saying that "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" holds as good as ever, so each proponent of each aircraft will use them his/her own way.

I think that most pilots given a choice between a Spitfire and a Hurricane to fly in combat would choose the Spit for some rather obvious reasons and your stats bare out that fact, also using your stats: 530 vs 655 means that the <fabric covered> Hurricane, of which there were more of downed more enemy aircraft <total> than the superior but less produced Spitfire. I am actually quite surprised to hear that the Hurricane came as close in average kills as it did. In reflection I believe this was in no small part due to the Chain Home system. What do you think?

As far as the sound of a Merlin, it always makes the blood stir (At least mine) and a Griffon..well there is a degree of excitement that is ...hard to contain. It is the sound of a raptor straining to leap into air and hunt. There is the smell of high octane petrol and the feel of the wind created by 2k H.P. spinning a five blade prop. It is vitriol and as close as anyone will come to pure distilled testosterone. The controls have to be set hard over to counter the centrifugal force of the engine during takeoff! ..O.K.. I have to go take a pill now...

Whew...anyway I will just say I love the sound of just about any Warbird but if its a Rolls Royce its just special!

I hope someday I can take the ultimate destination vacation and tour all the British WWII airfields, those that you can still get to anyway. What ghosts reside there and what memories still linger on I wonder. I will never fly a Spitfire unless you count my in my mind or the R/C Models..I do love touring the air museums here in the states and actually getting on-board some of the B17's, B24's and BPY and getting pictures. I have spent a lot of time at the museum in Palm Springs and countless photo's of the MK XIV there. My greatest dream would be to sit at the controls just once. So if you all could have your most cherished warbird dream..what would it be???

Cheers!!
Lee

 

[Readie]

Have a look at this site Lee...The Grace Spitfire ML407 Website
You may be able to fly in a Spitfire....
Good luck
And, yes Rolls Royce made /makes very special engines.
John

 

[GriffonSpit]

John,
Yes I remember reading about this some time back, the resurrection of an very rare variant as I recall. I remember at the time I was very interested because it might help me scratch that itch as it were but as I remember there was an issue to do with insurance or some such the plane is so rare and blah, blah. You would think there are mot many airworthy examples left! I would gladly put my 1/8 scale "foamie" up for collateral! Makes me want to load my backpack with a shovel and metal detector and head to Burma!! You think if I dig one up and I get some petrol I could find refueling spots between there and the states? I know there may be "some assembly required" but after the R/C Model I feel more than up to the task! I read they are encased in cosmoline and the wood crates were designed to withstand 70 years in monsoon soil so all I need to do is complete my flight plan...
Thanks John!
Cheers!
Lee

 

[Readie]

Lee, No need to dig one up lol.
The 'Grace Spitfire' is a twin seat trainer...very occasionally people are offered a ride in the back seat.
Have a look on 'you tube' with Tony Robinson having a flight over the white Cliffs.
Cheers
John

 

[Edgar Brooks]

ML407 was converted to a two-seater by Nick Grace; it was, originally a standard single-seat IX, which saw action on D-day. A few years ago, Carolyn Grace came to our local airfield, offering flights for £1200, but I doubt that it would be that cheap now.

 

[Readie]

ML407 was converted to a two-seater by Nick Grace; it was, originally a standard single-seat IX, which saw action on D-day. A few years ago, Carolyn Grace came to our local airfield, offering flights for £1200, but I doubt that it would be that cheap now.

The Grace Spitfire was at Exeter Airport too. I asked about a flight and was told that 'costs needed to be covered'. Taking everything into account I shudder to think how much a flight would cost now....mind you, it would be an experience of a life time !!
Cheers
John