Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Hello Steve
on the other hand some LW aces had high regard on the wing mounted armament, clearly a matter of taste.
Juha
I have been scratching my head ever since someone posted that centerline armament was the wave of the future. Of course it was as we no longer have engines and propeller in the front of fighters! I actually think in a single-engine WW2 fighter an all wing armament is an advantage in that allows much easier simultaneous servicing of guns and engine, and depending on pilot preferred method of attack more versatility in sighting options.
There is an advantage to centreline armament. There is no convergence set into the armament. Many P-38 pilots claimed to have had success taking shots at extreme ranges with their armament than would have been possible had the rounds converged and started to diverge again.
Other fans of centreline armament include many Luftwaffe aces ( I remember comments by Rall for example) and,from the wrong end of the weapons, Douglas Bader,to mention a few. Were the men who were there wrong?
Steve
Hello Steve
on the other hand some LW aces had high regard on the wing mounted armament, clearly a matter of taste. For ex. Mölders prefer centrally mounted weapons but Galland thought that at least some wing mounted weapons gave a spread which allowed an average pilot to achieve at least some hits. In essence rifle vs shot gun argument.
Juha
True,yet some had outer wing armament removed.That's another topic though! The lack of convergence gave a distinct advantage to those P-38 pilots due to the long effective range of their weapons. I concede that this is not so useful for a smaller rifle calibre weapon with an effective range around 300m.
Galland would have been better training his pilots better. An inability to estimate range let alone angle off and speed (enabling a correct estimate of deflection) plagued all air forces. A British analysis of combat films in 1943 showed that on average only half the correct allowance was made with inevitable consequences for the estimated deflection. An inability to correctly estimate range meant that some pilots were opening fire at 1500 yards! No wonder most pilots never hit anything.
Cheers
Steve
Hello Steve
deflection shooting was difficult to vast majority of pilots, that ws Galland point, spread helped to achieve at least some hits. Also some other aces regarded the RAF style armament effective while many others preferred the concentration type armament. And with K14/GM2 sights USAAF and RAF pilots were able to get hits from long distance and from difficult deflection angles late in the war, so wing mounted armament did not make long distance shots impossible, but I agree that for a good shot concentrated armament was preferable.
Juha
The P-51 was a light aircraft ?
Then I said,ctrian said:Why would the Bf range be an issue in Europe provided that the LW had bases everywhere and the advanced technology of drop tanks was known? The only other option is to build a fighter with lots of weight to store the extra fuel .That's not a good choice for the LW or any airforce not invested in ''Strategic''TM bombing.
And then you said?You mean a heavy plane like the Ta-152H with 263 gallons of internal fuel? What were they thinking?
I'm still trying to figure out where the P-51 came in this line of discussion.The P-51 was a light aircraft ?
I don't see a point.The Bf had more than enough performance for all the missions given to it.If you want more range you have to sacrifice something .Not everyone was in love with ''Strategic''TM bombing.
A long range fighter was not needed by the LW because they had no strategic bomber force to protect.Building a new fighter with the range of P-51 would not make sence economically for the reasons you stated.Considering the use of drop tanks LW fighters were adequate.LW needed much more aircraft not specific long ranged fighters.
I am guessing that most frequently with these "long range" shots even with centerline armament natural dispersion from range would result in only a few hits that fortunately hit small critical structures or in the case of the Pacific the lightly constructed and poorly armored japanese aircraft.
My honest belief is to decide which is better (Spit/Bf 109) is not an easy task. It is not black and white. I believe these things:
1. Both aircraft traded "superiority" over each other throughout the war.
2. There are just to many factors involved to just go off of "paper stats" (granted most of us have nothing to off of more than that).
3. Both aircraft had their advantages and disadvantages (as any great warbird does).
4. The "better" aircraft was the one which had the pilot that could get the most out of its advantages. That pilot would win the fight. Take a Spit with a good pilot and a Bf 109 with Adolf Galland and chances are the 109 is going to win. Now take a Spit with (Insert your RAF Great Pilot) and put a good pilot in the 109 and chances are the Spit is going to win.
I do however believe the following things as well:
1. The Spitfire was probably more forgiving.
2. The Spitfire was probably easier for a novice pilot than the Bf 109.
3. The Bf 109 was at the end of its evolution. I don't believe you were going to get much more out of the Bf 109. I also believe the Spitfire was at the end of its evolution as well. Having said that the days of the Piston fighter were coming to and end. You were not going to get much more out of "conventional" piston aircraft.
Let me see if I can follow this logic. You said,
Then I said,
And then you said?
I'm still trying to figure out where the P-51 came in this line of discussion.
As a point of interest, the P-51 was indeed lighter than the Ta-152 by 1500 lbs. As a matter of fact, the Ta was closer to the weight of a P-47D than it was to the Bf-109K or even the P-51D.
Since the Luftwaffe was investing in the Fw-190D-9 (heavier than the P-51D) and the Ta-152, already pointed out, it seems they did not agree with your assessment in late1944-45. I guess you think they were not very bright. Or maybe they knew something you don't.
My opinion is that they realized too late that they needed an aircraft with staying power in fuel and ammo to be most effective against hordes of bombers. The Ta could hover at high altitude above fighter escorts and swoop down rapidly and dispatch a bomber or bombers, and then climb up and repeat. The D-9 could protect the airfields longer. Also, I am sure that they realized that longer endurance reduced the landing and taking off frequency, thus lowering exposure to one of the most dangerous segments of flight, especially during the latter months of the war.
High endurance is a good thing. A couple of the most useless things to a pilot are runway behind you and fuel left on the ground.
Hello Ctrian
if the range of 109 was enough then from some mystery reason LW wasted its specialist torpedo force in unescorted missions and chose to prefer clearly less accurate night attacks over daytime raids when it at last saw the need stratecig attacks on the Soviet waepon industry. FAF experience was that fairly small escort force was enought in the East. I have difficulties to understand that LW could not spare a couple staffeln to escort He 111s to Gorky for ex if the 109 had the range to do that.
Juha
1 Spitfire v Bf 109
I think both planes were fairly evenly matched and both should perhaps have been replaced sooner. The question is what with. From the British side the Typhoon should have taken over and for a while it did against Jabos. It took the tempests arrival to substantially improve on the Spitfire and then not in all departments. Replacing the Bf109 with something substantally better would have involved a loss of production which Germany could not accept.
The absence of range was one major flaw of the BF 109 at the defending of the Reich. With the Bf 109 you can't concentrate a huge mass of fighter to built a focal point to achieve air supermarcy at the time you attack. That was a major flaw of the Bf 109 besides other.
I disagree that the loss of production is the major factor, the real reason was the slumber of the engine development from 1937 to 1941.
1943 was the realy first production year of the Jumo 213 and DB 603. And at this year you see the first prototypes of the FW 190D and Tank 152. That was much too late because there was no proper engine befor this timeline.
Perhaps a FW 187 could achieve other performances with a DB 605, but I don't want to rise this issue again, it is only an advice.
1 Spitfire v Bf 109
I think both planes were fairly evenly matched and both should perhaps have been replaced sooner. The question is what with. From the British side the Typhoon should have taken over and for a while it did against Jabos. It took the tempests arrival to substantially improve on the Spitfire and then not in all departments. Replacing the Bf109 with something substantally better would have involved a loss of production which Germany could not accept.
2 Central gun mounting obviously has some advantages which have been stated by others. I see some disadvantages also. The armament must be part of the original design, changing it must change the design and weight distribution. The synchronization gear must add some weight and is something else to "go wrong". Putting guns and ammunition around the engine must increase the frontal area. Having all guns on one axis may be preferable against some targets but not all. When straffing a column maybe a spread of fire is better.
3 The Mustang P51 benefitted from 2 major advances. The first was the aerodynamics of the wings and cooling system both inlet and outlet but overall the plane was cleaner. NAA paid huge attention to joints fastenings fitting tolerances etc. The second was in the engine. In 1940 the next generation of engines were being developed to produce 2000 BHP I dont think anyone in 1940 thought the Merlin would ever come close to that but it did with the added advantage of a low frontal area.
4 The Mustang wasnt an offensive fighter capable of taking the fight to Berlin. The offense came from the bombers it protected. It couldnt bomb Berlin from the UK, only a fool would suggest staffing the rooftops with 4 or 6 MGs was a good use of a plane and pilot. With extra internal tanks and drop tanks it had a prodigeous range but it had to ensure the rear tank was almost empty before combat and drop the tanks before engaging. The range therefore depends on the opposition as much as the plane itself. If the LW had the planes to fight the bomber formation from when it was first detected to when it left German airspace the results would have been much different. Thankfully they didnt, by the time the the P51D arrived in numbers Germany was also having to fight in Normandy and the east, and had already suffered heavy losses against P47s P38s. Some say that the P51D stole the glory of other marques that did the hard yards which is a bit unfair but they have a point. The chief advantage of the P51D is it looks so damned good even today and it performed as good as it looks. Would it be the same icon if it looked like a Blackburn Skua?
In hindsight which is what all of us use it is obvious what qualities of the P51 were especially with a Merlin engine but it wasnt obvious in 1941 when it first flew, the P41 didnt have a real impact until 1944 it could/should have been appearing in huge numbers from 1942.
@ Mustang nut
You are totally right that the Bf 109 was designed as as an air superiority fighter.
The flaw of range comes direct from the design philosophy of Willy Messerschmidt, because he believes in small and "fragile" fighters like the Spit and the Bf 109.
As he saw a P 47 for the first time, he was saying this plane is crap and looks like a "fliegendes Scheunentor"/ "flying barn door" and can't be a good fighter.
Sometimes reality can be very hard.