Spitfire

[tomo pauk]

Hi,
What would be the P-38s initial teething problems in NA?

 

[Siegfried]

View attachment 192018

The Merlin was in the way dave. I'm pretty sure that the hub cannon was never on the agenda for a Spitfire.

John

Mitchell essentially argued that any sort of fueselage armament thickens the fueselage and causes and increease in drag. It was an engineering decision by Mitchell.

 

[Readie]

Mitchell essentially argued that any sort of fueselage armament thickens the fueselage and causes and increease in drag. It was an engineering decision by Mitchell.

Yes, streamlining was important to gain every once of peformance. The Spitfires beauty and capability came from that principle.
John

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Being good doesn't help much if the aircraft isn't available when needed most.

The F4U entered production during the summer of 1942. It could have been available for operations in North Africa, Sicily and Southern Italy. Good aerial performance plus good endurance would have made the Corsair ideal for those battles.

Dave, Are you a dentist? because you definitely hit a nerve... This line of though calls for a new thread (hopefully one that hasn't been done previously).

"Greatest aviation related blunders of WW2"

 

[Readie]

Gen Eisenhower commanded in the Mediterranean during 1943. His B-17 transport aircraft was normally escorted by a squadron of Spitfires even though plenty of American made fighter aircraft were available. That speaks volumes about which Allied fighter aircraft type was considered most effective.
QUOTE]

The Spitfire was the only real choice for Gen E. But, we need to remember that Ike also needed the best pilots too. Or, if 'best' is the wrong word, then ' most experianced'.

The Corsair was a bruiser of a fighter but, what could have added to the USA aircraft in the ETO? The Thunderbolt was powerfull and as tough as old boots and the Mustang had the long range needed as the war progressed.

The PR Spits flew high and fast to photograph was was going on.

Very few aircraft started WW2 ,saw the war years through doing sterling service and were still needed into the pre jet 1950's.

John

 

[Readie]

)

"Greatest aviation related blunders of WW2"

Good idea Mal. My first suggestion is the LW area bombing of British cities...

John

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Yes, got to include that one! I tried to create the thread and then the connection timed out, and forgot to save the text so I have to resurrect it from scratch. No time now. Try again later.

Have to agree with Dave that the F4U-1, although limited in numbers would have helped immensely in the NA/Tunisian campaign. I think there were about 3-4 squadrons of F4U available in early 1943. Two were USMC, of which one was deployed to the Solomons in November 1942 and one or two were USN land based VF.

 

[davebender]

Corsair was a bruiser of a fighter but, what could have added to the USA aircraft in the ETO?

Endurance.

Internal Fuel Capacity.
410 gal. P-38J. Not available for North Africa, Sicily and Salerno.
375 gal. P-47-15. Not available for North Africa, Sicily and Salerno.
351 gal. F4U-1. Available June 1942.
269 gal. P-51D. Not available for North Africa, Sicily and Salerno.
85 (imp) gal. Spitfire.
The Spitfire was a fine fighter aircraft but that small fuel tank was as much a problem for the Spitfire in the Med as it was for the Me-109 during the BoB.

During the fall of 1942 the F4U was as good as anything flying and it had the endurance which the Spitfire lacked.

Late model P-38s, P-47s and P-51s had good endurance and most teething problems were fixed. None of that matters if they weren't available when needed most.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Endurance.

Internal Fuel Capacity.

351 gal. F4U-1. Available June 1942.

During the fall of 1942 the F4U was as good as anything flying and it had the endurance which the Spitfire lacked.

Late model P-38s, P-47s and P-51s had good endurance and most teething problems were fixed. None of that matters if they weren't available when needed most.

Good info, but with only 4 squadrons and mere USGov lip service being paid to the European Theater First Strategy it would have been tough to apportion the assets necessary to do the job. In the end, like most such problems it came down to politics. Roosevelt was telling Churchill one thing while executing a strategy that was contrary to his statements.

In fact this seems to me to be a classic proof that the public European First Strategy was nothing more than thinly veiled PR. The F4F-4 was still effectively helping to hold the line (with squadrons like VF-11) through the summer of 1943 although it wasn't great as an offensive air superiority weapon. If the USA was seriously committed to beating the 3rd Reich first, the Hog would have been flying over the deserts and mountains of Tunisia.

 

[Readie]

If the USA was seriously committed to beating the 3rd Reich first, the Hog would have been flying over the deserts and mountains of Tunisia.

Wasn't Japan the piper at the gates of dawn to you Americans?
I must admit that, polictics aside, I thought that the USA was commited to beating all its enemies or enemies of its allies if you prefer.
The Corsair was a great plane but, would it have made the cruical difference in the ETO?
John

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Wasn't Japan the piper at the gates of dawn to you Americans?
I must admit that, polictics aside, the USA was commited to beating all its enemies or enemies of its allies if you prefer.
The Corsair was a great plane but, would it have made the cruical difference in the ETO?
John

Yes the voting public of the USA was definitely wanting some December 7 8, payback in 42 and early 43.

Much like the Immortal Spit, it's probably a matter of time and place. and for the F4U that may have been primarily in the MTO in early 1943. I doubt the numbers could have been mustered to cover both ETO (Bombing escort and interdiction missions) and the MTO as well. By the time the F4U numbers became sufficient in northern Europe, the P-47's might have been available. I don't know how Vought, Brewster and Goodyear production numbers stack up against those companies producing P-47's (and P-38J's?).

 

[Shortround6]

Daimler-Benz superchargers worked yet they had a hub cannon.

The supercharger on a DB601 didn't work any better than the supercharger on an Allison. Some how I am not impressed by critical altitude of 3700 meters.

It could be worse. You could choose the U.S. development path for the Allison engine.
- Low performance supercharger.
- No hub cannon.
- No reliable aircraft cannon period, forcing the use of .50cal MGs into the 1950s.

When did DB come up with a better supercharger? 1942? and at what cost?
Apparently it was only the Army that kept the .50, the Navy gave up on it in late 1944/early 1945.

What the the presence or lack of a certain type gun in 1950 has to do with the design of an engine in 1935-36 I have no idea????

 

[Shortround6]

Gen Eisenhower commanded in the Mediterranean during 1943. His B-17 transport aircraft was normally escorted by a squadron of Spitfires even though plenty of American made fighter aircraft were available. That speaks volumes about which Allied fighter aircraft type was considered most effective.

If the U.S. Army Air Corps had purchased F4Us Ike wouldn't have needed British made Spitfires for protection.

The Army could have purchased (ordered) all the F4Us it wanted, doesn't mean they were going to get them until late 1943 or 1944.

Only 178 F4Us were built in 1942 and 68 of them were in December. It took Chance-Vought until April 1943 to break triple digit monthly production and until Aug to break 200 a month.

this is from an order for for 584 planes placed on June 30 1941, and before you come up with more of your "just throw money at it" ideas consider that Brewster was brought in as a second source on Nov 1st 1941 and Goodyear is named as the second associate producer in Dec of 1941. By August of 1943 Brewster had built 5 planes and Goodyear managed to deliver 377 planes in all of 1943.
What are you going to do, build a 4th factory to get you 3-400 planes in 1943 and those 300-400 planes are going to change the course of the war? Goodyear went on to build 2108 Corsairs in 1944 and 1521 in 8 months of 1945. it takes time to build factories and hit production numbers. Many Goodyear Corsairs were built with fixed wings so that idea won't speed up production much.

 

[Readie]

Yes the voting public of the USA was definitely wanting some December 7 8, payback in 42 and early 43.

Much like the Immortal Spit, it's probably a matter of time and place. and for the F4U that may have been primarily in the MTO in early 1943. I doubt the numbers could have been mustered to cover both ETO (Bombing escort and interdiction missions) and the MTO as well. By the time the F4U numbers became sufficient in northern Europe, the P-47's might have been available. I don't know how Vought, Brewster and Goodyear production numbers stack up against those companies producing P-47's (and P-38J's?).

I suppose we should include the Tempest too in our 'time place' thoughts. If WW2 has dragged on another 3 years so many planes would have been redundant...except you know who of course...lol
John

 

[tyrodtom]

Gen. Eisnehower may have had those Spitfires just as a showcase of co-operation, and unity between the allied powers.

Or were they USAAF flown Spitfires ?

 

[Readie]

Gen. Eisnehower may have had those Spitfires just as a showcase of co-operation, and unity between the allied powers.

haha...
Maybe Gen E preferred the sleek profile to gaze upon while thinking 'why can't we Americans build such beautifull fighters'...

John

 

[Shortround6]

Being good doesn't help much if the aircraft isn't available when needed most.

The F4U entered production during the summer of 1942. It could have been available for operations in North Africa, Sicily and Southern Italy. Good aerial performance plus good endurance would have made the Corsair ideal for those battles.

Yes it entered production during the summer of 1942, 2 in July, 9 in August, 13 in Sept, and 32 in Oct. the 500th Plane isn't delivered until late spring/early summer of 1943 while the 1000th plane shows up just about 4 months later.

 

[tomo pauk]

Some 9 (nine) times the production of P-38 surpassed the production of F4U prior 1943 (and the number of P-38s was way too low for the demand); even in 1943 P-38 was more prolific. That was the only US plane that could compete with the best other countries were producing in 1942.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Some 9 (nine) times the production of P-38 surpassed the production of F4U prior 1943 (and the number of P-38s was way too low for the demand); even in 1943 P-38 was more prolific. That was the only US plane that could compete with the best other countries were producing in 1942.

Tomo,

Just off the top of my head, I believe these early (1942) P-38s were the restricted marks not the P-38J which I think was the first to have the limits removed. The first P-38 in the South Pacific Theater was the 'F' model I believe, which appeared almost simultaneously with the F4U-1. The P-38J didn't start appearing until mid-1943. The P-38 had a very long gestation period and while the F4U can be said to have had some early teething troubles it was in theater in squadron strength in Late 1942 and flying combat misions shortly thereafter. That appears to be about the same schedule as the P-38F but as stated above, the P-38F wasn't yet the world beater that the later J model became.

Also, I am not sure why you are discounting the F4U when implying it couldn't compete with the 1942 fighters of other countries. It's important to differentiate those fighters that can be operated as offensive weapon systems and those that are primarily defensive. I think of the advanced European fighters as primarily defensive in design mainly due to their relatively limited range. Even the early and obsolescent P-40 and F4F models had longer legs than most of their European contemporaries. US fighters tended to be flying gas tanks to provde that offensive edge. Of course that range came at a price in their performance, which was eventually overcome with advancements in engine and airframe technology. The first batch of these advanced US fighters were the F4U and the P-38. I suspect I am not telling you much (most probably nothing) that you don't already know, but thought it might be helpful to restate to make the case for the F4U's standing at the early date.

Of course I am a little embarrassed to be dwelling on the F4U on a Spitfire thread featuring John's fine photos of the immortal Spit.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Only 178 F4Us were built in 1942 and 68 of them were in December. It took Chance-Vought until April 1943 to break triple digit monthly production and until Aug to break 200 a month.

this is from an order for for 584 planes placed on June 30 1941, and before you come up with more of your "just throw money at it" ideas consider that Brewster was brought in as a second source on Nov 1st 1941 and Goodyear is named as the second associate producer in Dec of 1941. By August of 1943 Brewster had built 5 planes and Goodyear managed to deliver 377 planes in all of 1943.
What are you going to do, build a 4th factory to get you 3-400 planes in 1943 and those 300-400 planes are going to change the course of the war? Goodyear went on to build 2108 Corsairs in 1944 and 1521 in 8 months of 1945. it takes time to build factories and hit production numbers. Many Goodyear Corsairs were built with fixed wings so that idea won't speed up production much.

Shortround, could you please share the reference for the F4U production numbers. These are really interesting and informative.