Tomahawk101
Airman
- 31
- Jun 17, 2010
I'd say the Sten was better, after all it was cheap, which was needed after so many Lee-Enfields were abandoned in France.
Sten Mk II vs. MP-40
- Thread starter Zniperguy114
- Start date
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Yes, it was cheap to produce. But it can't be compared to a rifle - totally different use, role, and effect!
There were quite a number of SMLE's left behind in France, but Britain still had many more, and the Lee Enfield No4 was about to go into full production even before the Sten was iisued, to replace/ bolster the SMLE, and was reaching service units by mid to late 1941.
If comparing a weapon's effectiveness and uae against the cost, then I'm afraid that's the wrong way to look at it. It could cost a fortune and not work, or cost very little and work well. The Sten worked, and was an effective weapon (as far as SMG's go) to a point, but the MP40, overall, was superior. Having actually had the opportunity to use both, and not just a few rounds on a firing range, I know which one I would choose!
There were quite a number of SMLE's left behind in France, but Britain still had many more, and the Lee Enfield No4 was about to go into full production even before the Sten was iisued, to replace/ bolster the SMLE, and was reaching service units by mid to late 1941.
If comparing a weapon's effectiveness and uae against the cost, then I'm afraid that's the wrong way to look at it. It could cost a fortune and not work, or cost very little and work well. The Sten worked, and was an effective weapon (as far as SMG's go) to a point, but the MP40, overall, was superior. Having actually had the opportunity to use both, and not just a few rounds on a firing range, I know which one I would choose!
Tomahawk101
Airman
- 31
- Jun 17, 2010
True, but it was because so many rifles where lost it would cost too much shaping and treating the wood for replacements, which is why a cheap, easy-to make, all-metal SMG was made.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Sorry, but that is not why the Sten was produced!!
The need for a suitable sub-machine gun was firast seriously addressed in the summer of 1940, and plans put in hand to produce a weapon based on the design of the German MP28. Although this eventually surfaced as the Lanchester, it was relatively complex to manufacture, and somewhat costly, with acceptance trial being undertaken in November 1940.
Up to that point, the only readily available, suitable SMG had been the American Thompson, a heavy, relatively complex, and expensive weapon, which, of course, had to be imported, along with the ammunition. (Britain had virtually no capacity for the production of .45 ACP, and little capacity for 9mm, the first110 million rounds of which were again a US import).
By early 1941, the situation had changed, and a weapon of simple construction had been designed and proposed by Major R.V. Shepherd, and Mr.H.J. Turpin, the latter Chief of the Design Dept, R.A., Enfield. (hence the name, ST for Shepherd and Turpin, EN for Enfield.)
The first production of the Sten Mk1, a very simple weapon, but acceptable for the then present need, was completed in June 1941. Production was simplified even further and, by mid 1942, the most common variant, the Sten Mk2, was in production, first being used in action during the Dieppe raid in August 1942.
By that time, the first Lee Enfield No4 rifles had already been issued long before, being available in 1939, but not in full service use until late 1941. The No4 rifle simplified the production of the time consuming and costly SMLE, which had been virtually hand-built, and there was no shortage of these, especially as they were also produced in Canada as the No4Mk1*, and also in the USA. Additionally, Britain had a large 'War Reserve' stock of P14 rifles, mainly issued to second-line units and the 'Home Guard'.
Apart from the No4 being much easier, quicker and cheaper to produce than its predecessor the SMLE, the need for, and equiping with, a SMG had no relationship whatsoever to the production of, and use of a rifle!
They are two distinctly different weapons, designed for very different purposes. In general, the SMG (any SMG) was virtually replaced, Worldwide, in average infantry use, by the advent of the so-called 'Assault Rifle', with the MP44 being the first real weapon in widespread use, and still in use today in various 'spin offs', and of course, the AK range, the M16 etc etc.
Yes, there are still SMG's in use today, some being excellent (H&K MP5 range for example), but these are mainly used in specialised roles, such as CT, and for Policing work.
The often common popular belief that soldiers went into battle all armed with SMGs is nonsense, and the rifle, eventually the Assault rifle, was and is the mainstay of the infantryman's arsenal, and is likely to remain so as long as humans fight humans on the ground.
Incidentally, a great percentage of Stens were never used by regular forces, being dropped to Resistance and Partisan groups across Europe and the Balkans, for use as a suitable (and cheap) weapon in guerilla warfare. Many of these were lost before reaching the recipients.
Just as soon as Britain was able to, after WW2, the original Lanchester design was reviewed, and a replacement for the Sten requested as soon as practicably possible.This used features from the MP28, and the MP40, and was eventually to see the light of day as the L2, commonly called the Sterling SMG.
The need for a suitable sub-machine gun was firast seriously addressed in the summer of 1940, and plans put in hand to produce a weapon based on the design of the German MP28. Although this eventually surfaced as the Lanchester, it was relatively complex to manufacture, and somewhat costly, with acceptance trial being undertaken in November 1940.
Up to that point, the only readily available, suitable SMG had been the American Thompson, a heavy, relatively complex, and expensive weapon, which, of course, had to be imported, along with the ammunition. (Britain had virtually no capacity for the production of .45 ACP, and little capacity for 9mm, the first110 million rounds of which were again a US import).
By early 1941, the situation had changed, and a weapon of simple construction had been designed and proposed by Major R.V. Shepherd, and Mr.H.J. Turpin, the latter Chief of the Design Dept, R.A., Enfield. (hence the name, ST for Shepherd and Turpin, EN for Enfield.)
The first production of the Sten Mk1, a very simple weapon, but acceptable for the then present need, was completed in June 1941. Production was simplified even further and, by mid 1942, the most common variant, the Sten Mk2, was in production, first being used in action during the Dieppe raid in August 1942.
By that time, the first Lee Enfield No4 rifles had already been issued long before, being available in 1939, but not in full service use until late 1941. The No4 rifle simplified the production of the time consuming and costly SMLE, which had been virtually hand-built, and there was no shortage of these, especially as they were also produced in Canada as the No4Mk1*, and also in the USA. Additionally, Britain had a large 'War Reserve' stock of P14 rifles, mainly issued to second-line units and the 'Home Guard'.
Apart from the No4 being much easier, quicker and cheaper to produce than its predecessor the SMLE, the need for, and equiping with, a SMG had no relationship whatsoever to the production of, and use of a rifle!
They are two distinctly different weapons, designed for very different purposes. In general, the SMG (any SMG) was virtually replaced, Worldwide, in average infantry use, by the advent of the so-called 'Assault Rifle', with the MP44 being the first real weapon in widespread use, and still in use today in various 'spin offs', and of course, the AK range, the M16 etc etc.
Yes, there are still SMG's in use today, some being excellent (H&K MP5 range for example), but these are mainly used in specialised roles, such as CT, and for Policing work.
The often common popular belief that soldiers went into battle all armed with SMGs is nonsense, and the rifle, eventually the Assault rifle, was and is the mainstay of the infantryman's arsenal, and is likely to remain so as long as humans fight humans on the ground.
Incidentally, a great percentage of Stens were never used by regular forces, being dropped to Resistance and Partisan groups across Europe and the Balkans, for use as a suitable (and cheap) weapon in guerilla warfare. Many of these were lost before reaching the recipients.
Just as soon as Britain was able to, after WW2, the original Lanchester design was reviewed, and a replacement for the Sten requested as soon as practicably possible.This used features from the MP28, and the MP40, and was eventually to see the light of day as the L2, commonly called the Sterling SMG.
Tomahawk101
Airman
- 31
- Jun 17, 2010
Who cares? It was cheap and did the job it was meant for, enough for me
Glider
Captain
You would care if you had to go into combat with one. As I mentioned earlier there was a reason why a lot of British soldiers threw their Stens away at the first opportunity and used captured MP40's.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Agreed. And if you don't care, then at least get the facts, reasons and usage correct before jumping in with off-hand statements about how a weapon came about.
B-17engineer
Colonel
I have an off topic question
The Sten and Type 100 are virtually the same gun...who copied who....or was it pure coincidence? (I doubt that since the type 96 or 99, not good with Japanese guns, is the same as the Bren...)
The Sten and Type 100 are virtually the same gun...who copied who....or was it pure coincidence? (I doubt that since the type 96 or 99, not good with Japanese guns, is the same as the Bren...)
Tomahawk101
Airman
- 31
- Jun 17, 2010
Probably coincidence as wikipedia says "Japan was suprisingly late to introduce the sub-machine gun to its armed forces , a few models of the SIG Bergman 1920 (a licenced version of the German MP 18 ) was purchased from Switzerland in the 20s".
It then goes straight on about 1942 and who served with.
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- Thread starter
- #30
Zniperguy114
Airman
The Type 100 was horrible. Lacked stopping power and jammed excessively in combat. I wonder just how many more casualties the Japanese could have inflicted if they had fielded SMGs like Russia or at least self-loading rifles like the US.
Especially in a jungle environment like NG or the Solomons.
Tomahawk101
Airman
- 31
- Jun 17, 2010
That's exactly what it was, a good gun just poorly made (it was the same case with the Arisaka in 1945)
Doughboy
Staff Sergeant
I will choose the MP-40 because it was a more dependable and durable sub-machinegun.
They were poorly made for two totally different reasons... The Sten was poorly made because the British were making a cheap submachinegun, so that they could mass produce it. The "Last Ditch Arisaka" was poorly made because Japan was running out of raw materials and they needed to keep producing rifles.
They were poorly made for two totally different reasons... The Sten was poorly made because the British were making a cheap submachinegun, so that they could mass produce it. The "Last Ditch Arisaka" was poorly made because Japan was running out of raw materials and they needed to keep producing rifles.
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razor1uk
Staff Sergeant
Mmm, I went for the Sten; incedently AFAIK, the Germans were in the process of manufacturing distributing their own copies of the Mk2/Mk3 to the home defence troops when the European War ended, because it was quicker, cheaper and used less strategic materials to make than the mp40, the difference helping in the production of other equipments inc the SG44.
Also the stens magazine mouth/lock was designed to able to use the mp40/41-II mags. Apparently the sten mags were inferior copies of the mp40 mag, and that the mags feed ramps/lips were prone to bending causing jams, while the mp's were similarlytroubled, but of better design and/or material.
Also the stens magazine mouth/lock was designed to able to use the mp40/41-II mags. Apparently the sten mags were inferior copies of the mp40 mag, and that the mags feed ramps/lips were prone to bending causing jams, while the mp's were similarlytroubled, but of better design and/or material.
Tomahawk101
Airman
- 31
- Jun 17, 2010
Errr I already knew why the Arisakas where being poorly made in 1945
stug3
Staff Sergeant
I thought this was interesting and hopefully you will too. In 1942 Eric Blair (Orwell) was working for the BBC doing what he considered useless propaganda work. He was also a member of the Home Guard and in August wrote in his diary his impressions of the Sten in two entries dated August 7 9.
7.8.42 | Orwell Diaries 1938-1942
...Last night for the first time took a Sten gun to pieces. [4] There is almost nothing to learn in it. [No spare parts. If the gun goes seriously wrong you simply chuck it away and get another.] Weight of the gun without magazine is 5 ½ pounds – [weight of the Tommy gun would be 12-15 lb. Estimated price is not 50/- as I had imagined, but 18/-.] I can see a million or two million of these things, each with 500 cartridges and a book of instructions, floating down all over Europe on little parachutes. If the Government had the guts to do that they would really have burned their boats
9.8.42 | Orwell Diaries 1938-1942
Fired the Sten gun for the first time today. No kick, no vibration, very little noise, and reasonable accuracy. Out of about 2500 rounds fired, 2 stoppages, in each case due to a dud cartridge – treatment, simply to work the bolt by hand.
7.8.42 | Orwell Diaries 1938-1942
...Last night for the first time took a Sten gun to pieces. [4] There is almost nothing to learn in it. [No spare parts. If the gun goes seriously wrong you simply chuck it away and get another.] Weight of the gun without magazine is 5 ½ pounds – [weight of the Tommy gun would be 12-15 lb. Estimated price is not 50/- as I had imagined, but 18/-.] I can see a million or two million of these things, each with 500 cartridges and a book of instructions, floating down all over Europe on little parachutes. If the Government had the guts to do that they would really have burned their boats
9.8.42 | Orwell Diaries 1938-1942
Fired the Sten gun for the first time today. No kick, no vibration, very little noise, and reasonable accuracy. Out of about 2500 rounds fired, 2 stoppages, in each case due to a dud cartridge – treatment, simply to work the bolt by hand.
parsifal
Colonel
The main problem for Japanese SMGs was the round they fired more than anything.
Stens acquired a bad reputation in the jungle, as they were not sufficiently resistant to mud and moisture. they jammed a lot. Same applied to the US "Grease Gun"
The favoured weapons in the Jungle were the Thompson and the owen gun. Both could put up with a LOT of abuse. That was critical in the jungle
MP40 never fought in the jungle, but it did fight in the mud and snow of russia. it acquired a good reputation there, the only real criticism being the small ammunition supply. A wartime expedient was to put two mags side by side, leaving one exposed t the elements. This immediately damned the MP 40 from being a totally reliable weapon to being a totally unrelaible one.
I consider the best all round SMG of the war to be the Owen, followed by the PPSH series
Stens acquired a bad reputation in the jungle, as they were not sufficiently resistant to mud and moisture. they jammed a lot. Same applied to the US "Grease Gun"
The favoured weapons in the Jungle were the Thompson and the owen gun. Both could put up with a LOT of abuse. That was critical in the jungle
MP40 never fought in the jungle, but it did fight in the mud and snow of russia. it acquired a good reputation there, the only real criticism being the small ammunition supply. A wartime expedient was to put two mags side by side, leaving one exposed t the elements. This immediately damned the MP 40 from being a totally reliable weapon to being a totally unrelaible one.
I consider the best all round SMG of the war to be the Owen, followed by the PPSH series
stug3
Staff Sergeant
22.9.42 | Orwell Diaries 1938-1942
22.9.42
Most of the ammunition for our Sten gun is Italian, or rather made in Germany for Italy. I fancy this must be the first weapon the British army has had whose bore was measured in the millimetres instead of inches. They were going to make a new cheap automatic weapon, and having the vast stocks of ammunition captured in Abyssinia handy, manufactured the guns to fit the cartridges instead of the other way about. The advantage is that the ammunition of almost any continental submachine gun will fit it. It will be interesting to see whether the Germans or Japanese come out with a .303 weapon to git captured British ammunition.
22.9.42
Most of the ammunition for our Sten gun is Italian, or rather made in Germany for Italy. I fancy this must be the first weapon the British army has had whose bore was measured in the millimetres instead of inches. They were going to make a new cheap automatic weapon, and having the vast stocks of ammunition captured in Abyssinia handy, manufactured the guns to fit the cartridges instead of the other way about. The advantage is that the ammunition of almost any continental submachine gun will fit it. It will be interesting to see whether the Germans or Japanese come out with a .303 weapon to git captured British ammunition.
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
One reason the Sten magazine had a reputation for bent magazine lips was the practice of the 'rude and licentious' to use them to open beer bottles. I found myself still trying to stamp this practice out on the L2A3 SMG in the 1980's. Fortunately their magazines were made of stiffer steel. They then started using the cocking handle of SLRs. I made them wear a lanyard of a spare bootlace with a stamped canopener/bottle opener on the end in their top pocket.
My SMG choice (away from the poll) would be the Lanchester, as long as I had the webbing pouches to take the 50 round magazines.
My SMG choice (away from the poll) would be the Lanchester, as long as I had the webbing pouches to take the 50 round magazines.
