Again, this is true, but it doesn't make the Mosquito a "Sten Gun" aircraft or a heavily productionized design. Yes, it was designed to take advantage of existing skills, tools, and the strategic material situation. However, these are two different things (although you could have a "Sten Gun" aircraft that you can build quickly, with semi-skilled labor, that is still designed around strategic material limits, and even takes advantage of some "traditional" methods.
Sten SMG aircraft: productionized aircraft part 1, the reality
- Thread starter BarnOwlLover
- Start date
Ironically, the Me262 was something of a "Sten Gun" aircraft because of the engines. While they were bleeding edge technology, they were also fast and cheap to build, even with barely-skill slave labor that was starved, beaten, tortured, and randomly murdered. The engines had a ridiculously short time between overhauls, but they could be built fast enough to (mostly) keep the Swallows operational. The fuselage and empenage were advanced, but nothing special, and the cockpit was even a little on the primitive side, mostly because the engine controls were simple. Do you want more power, or less power? No futzing with mm of mercury or choke, or radiator flap settings, or the dozen factors that pilots with piston engines had to deal with (even in the FW190).
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The BMW801 engine had the "kommandogerat" engine management system, so was much simpler to operate.
As far as simplicity in construction and materials go, the KI-115 would be near the top of the list.
As far as simplicity in construction and materials go, the KI-115 would be near the top of the list.
- Thread starter
- #64
BarnOwlLover
Staff Sergeant
Maybe I should've said that purpose-made suicide/kamikaze aircraft (like the Ohka and Ki-115) don't count, because they have no means of offense or defense other than being crashed into something. This also essentially includes Me-109s and Ki-61s that were modified for ramming missions late in World War II.
Also, trainers converted into combat planes don't really count, since they weren't originally designed with combat capability in mind. So Po-2s and their German equivalents used on the Eastern Front don't really qualify.
However, obsolescent or obsolete fighters or bombers or recon planes converted into other roles (such as Fiat CR 42 fighters being used at night harassment aircraft) may count.
Also, trainers converted into combat planes don't really count, since they weren't originally designed with combat capability in mind. So Po-2s and their German equivalents used on the Eastern Front don't really qualify.
However, obsolescent or obsolete fighters or bombers or recon planes converted into other roles (such as Fiat CR 42 fighters being used at night harassment aircraft) may count.
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Shortround6
Lieutenant General
Well. the Ki-115 helps show up some of the problems, granted the Ki-115 was pretty poor example.
Going by the wiki write-up the Japanese in charge of this must have gotten a really good batch of Goring's drugs from the U-boat.
One of the goals was simple to fly, it wasn't, yes they were working on it but needing expert pilots to take-off and land does not simplify the training requirements.
Taking the thought process from "we don't need to teach them how to land (at under 100mph) to hitting a point target in a 350-400mph dive while being shot" at takes quite a stretch.
They go from taking old. obsolete engines out of storage (but use engines close the ones used in A6M5s) to having plans for 8000 planes a month(?)
Yeah, they were going through cases of Sake a month in addition to cousin Herman's drugs.
Inferior aircraft will cause less damage to the enemy per 100 or 1000 flights than better aircraft. Now can the inferior aircraft be built that much cheaper (and supplied with larger amounts of fuel and pilots) that the total investment winds up doing more damage to enemy than the better aircraft.
and once you get away from the Ki-115 type, like wanting to be able to land, having a radio, having instrument so you can fly through a cloud and having enough guns to have even a realistic chance of damaging the enemy the actual cost may be closer than you might think.
Going by the wiki write-up the Japanese in charge of this must have gotten a really good batch of Goring's drugs from the U-boat.
One of the goals was simple to fly, it wasn't, yes they were working on it but needing expert pilots to take-off and land does not simplify the training requirements.
Taking the thought process from "we don't need to teach them how to land (at under 100mph) to hitting a point target in a 350-400mph dive while being shot" at takes quite a stretch.
They go from taking old. obsolete engines out of storage (but use engines close the ones used in A6M5s) to having plans for 8000 planes a month(?)
Yeah, they were going through cases of Sake a month in addition to cousin Herman's drugs.
Inferior aircraft will cause less damage to the enemy per 100 or 1000 flights than better aircraft. Now can the inferior aircraft be built that much cheaper (and supplied with larger amounts of fuel and pilots) that the total investment winds up doing more damage to enemy than the better aircraft.
and once you get away from the Ki-115 type, like wanting to be able to land, having a radio, having instrument so you can fly through a cloud and having enough guns to have even a realistic chance of damaging the enemy the actual cost may be closer than you might think.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Bf109s weren't modified for ramming, they were done at various times as spur of the moment.
Royal Bulgarian Air Force pilots conducted the majority of ramming (taran) with Bf109s out of all nations that flew the type.
- Thread starter
- #67
BarnOwlLover
Staff Sergeant
What about Sonderkommando Elbe, whose only confirmed major mission happened on April 7, 1945, and was essentially an operational failure? Reportedly their 109s that were intended for ramming had most of their armament for sure removed. They managed to down some B-17s and B-24s, but some aircraft that were rammed remained airworthy and some of their planes were shot down by escort fighters.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I was referencing regular pilots with standard issued aircraft.
The sonderkommando elbe unit was a waste of men and resources. If they got cloae enough to ram a bomber, they were close enough to engage with cannon (like with MG151/20 or MK108, for example).
And stripping an aircraft of weapons and armor is modifying, but it was not part of a manufacturing process, it was done at the field level.
The sonderkommando elbe unit was a waste of men and resources. If they got cloae enough to ram a bomber, they were close enough to engage with cannon (like with MG151/20 or MK108, for example).
And stripping an aircraft of weapons and armor is modifying, but it was not part of a manufacturing process, it was done at the field level.
- Thread starter
- #69
BarnOwlLover
Staff Sergeant
Were there any cheap or "emergency" fighters that did enter service that did more or less what they were supposed to do in the opinion of the members here?
That was exactly what the Hurricane was supposed to be.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The He162 would be one.
Short time from paper to production and inexpensive to manufacture. It's introduction was really too late in the war to have an impact (like most Axis types).
Short time from paper to production and inexpensive to manufacture. It's introduction was really too late in the war to have an impact (like most Axis types).
- Thread starter
- #72
BarnOwlLover
Staff Sergeant
That's true, considering that it was a jet, but it also showed the problems that the German aviation industry (and defense industry) as a whole was facing in late World War II. The He-162 was intended to be built as cheaply and simply as possible, using unskilled (probably slave) labor, and flown by pilots with basic training. But it also says (like a lot of other programs in a similar vein elsewhere) "too little, too late". Expecting a high performance jet fighter to be flown by hastily trained pilots (some of whom were likely to be teenage Hitler Youth volunteers) and built by people with no experience in working on aircraft (including possibly slave labor) was probably asking too much.
And it was another victim of the TegoFIlm issues, since it used a significant amount of wood components, which often (especially in testing) seemed to part ways with the aircraft.
An excellent example of such an aircraft--and of the problems likely to be encountered taking such hasty desperation measures.
And it was another victim of the TegoFIlm issues, since it used a significant amount of wood components, which often (especially in testing) seemed to part ways with the aircraft.
An excellent example of such an aircraft--and of the problems likely to be encountered taking such hasty desperation measures.
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
I guess a lot depends on what is meant by cheap or "emergency" and
2nd, "the more or less do what they are supposed to do".
The Hurricane was NOT cheap or an "emergency fighter". Yes it was cheaper than a Spitfire but aside from the airframe, everything else was identical. Same engine, prop, instruments, radio gear, etc. Overall cost of the fighter sitting on the field ready to go wasn't that much cheaper. The Miles M.20 was not only go around for Miles on this concept.
The Miles M.24 which was basically a Miles Master trainer with 6 .303 guns in wing and the rear cockpit taken out and partially faired over. Used a 700hp (?) Kestrel engine. The RAF had hundreds of Kestrels in store from the biplanes of the 30s so no production needed. It was cheap, it just wasn't that good, speed might have been 250mph? Some accounts say 25 were converted on the production line.
One could argue it did what was intended (get 6 guns in the air at speed that might work for bomber interception? and not impact normal fighter production).
The Main problem with the He 162 was that it could not do what was intended. The actual performance was good. The actual intention was that they would be flown by teenage Hitler youth with basic glider training and maybe 30 hours of powered flight? Winkle Brown liked flying it very much, he also said it not an airplane for beginners. So did it do want was intended or not?
The Beretta 92 is the perfect fit in my hands, more so than my Glock, the best are the Navy Colts, after shooting one I know why Wild Bill prefered them.
Mate, I think I can speak for everyone when I say we are all in the same boat, I went from state/national competition shooting as a boy to now barely being able to see the front sight.
- Thread starter
- #76
BarnOwlLover
Staff Sergeant
By 1940 standards, the Hurricane was cheap and cheerful, that being a relative phrase. It was simple and easy to build and maintain. But when was the Hurricane designed? I'd say from 1933-35, which though it wasn't designed using the absolute most cutting edge tech like the Spitfire was, it was still advanced by the standards of the 1930s.
Even the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest still used a Hurricane-like tube frame structure from the rear cockpit bulkhead forward. Only the Fury and Sea Fury went with a full monocoque stressed skin fuselage, and that first few in 1944. But did it cost much less than the Spitfire? Not really, given that the Typhoon and Tempest were larger than the Spitfire, and especially with the Sabre engine, the power unit was more complex than the Merlin or Griffon. But ultimately, it did either work as intended (Tempest) or found very good use elsewhere (Typhoon). But cheap? Not insanely. Easier to built and maintain? Probably, at least for the airframe.
The He-162 did perform well, but in the hands of expert pilots and when it was well maintained or built. Not many expert pilots left in Germany in 1945 who already weren't in service with more conventional aircraft. And production quality was highly variable. Plus issues with construction did often restrict the top speed of the He-162 to 370mph aside from dire emergencies. 370mph was slower than some P-40s, slower than the Spitfire V, over 50 mph slower than a Fw-190D, and 80 mph slower than a Me-109K. And that's even given that late Fw-190s and Me-109s weren't known for consistent high quality in 1945.
Emergency or cheap "jockey" aircraft were doable, but you'd be giving up capability one way or another, especially in extreme cases.
If you wanted capable, probably the best you could hope for was "relatively" cheap and simple to build aircraft that didn't give up much if anything in capability, but often weren't a ton cheaper or even simpler than the best available.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Interesting - the Me262 had an issued "do not exceed" speed warning, but I was not aware the He162 had one.
It was one of the fastest jets in service during the war, too.
- Thread starter
- #78
BarnOwlLover
Staff Sergeant
Early test flights were even limited to just above 300 mph after one of the prototypes crashed pending design changes to cure instability problems and the issues with glued wooden components.
The only operational unit to fly He-162s did lose 13 aircraft in it's brief operational career, mostly due to engine problems and production defects. Allied opinion was that the problems were due almost entirely due to rushed production and use of unskilled labor, not any design flaw. Interestingly, the He-162 did have an ejection seat (because of the piggy back engine mounting).
But even though Eric Brown considered it in flight to be in general an excellent aircraft, expecting poorly trained Luftwaffe recruits and Hitler Youth volunteers to fly a trainer well was a stretch, let alone a 500+mph jet, even if it was restricted to flying at lower speed because of suspected issues except for emergency use. The only unit to use the He-162 in combat was comprised of experienced pilots, but most of them previously flew Fw-190s, not jets like the Me-262. Hence there were a lot of crashes due to engine flameouts and other issues cause by adapting from piston power to jet power.
The only operational unit to fly He-162s did lose 13 aircraft in it's brief operational career, mostly due to engine problems and production defects. Allied opinion was that the problems were due almost entirely due to rushed production and use of unskilled labor, not any design flaw. Interestingly, the He-162 did have an ejection seat (because of the piggy back engine mounting).
But even though Eric Brown considered it in flight to be in general an excellent aircraft, expecting poorly trained Luftwaffe recruits and Hitler Youth volunteers to fly a trainer well was a stretch, let alone a 500+mph jet, even if it was restricted to flying at lower speed because of suspected issues except for emergency use. The only unit to use the He-162 in combat was comprised of experienced pilots, but most of them previously flew Fw-190s, not jets like the Me-262. Hence there were a lot of crashes due to engine flameouts and other issues cause by adapting from piston power to jet power.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The He162's ejection seat was part of it's original design.
As for operational crashes, most were due to it's limited fuel capacity and it ran out of fuel too often - the Spatz had the glide characteristics of a cinder block.
As for operational crashes, most were due to it's limited fuel capacity and it ran out of fuel too often - the Spatz had the glide characteristics of a cinder block.
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
But they did not have those engines to spare. They were the there to keep the trainers in the air. The production lines were turned over to Merlin's long before. Put the Kestrels in (needed for training) Masters single seaters then you turn off the 1940 tap of newly trained pilots which was the real RAF log jam at that time. That was the whole reason for the vast investment in the Empire training scheme that paid off handsomely thereafter. Even Miles realised the finite supply of Kestrels and flew the first Mercury powered Master in 1939.
