Streamlining the German air force ?

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pbehn

Colonel
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Oct 30, 2013
And you might ask why make 4 different fighters ? Because if u cancdl the BF 110 you will need the extra fighter (the HE 112) to make up for lack of 110s or at least thats how i envison it .
For a while the Bf 110 was the only plane capable of doing some things, like night fighter for instance.
 

tomo pauk

Creator of Interesting Threads
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I mentioned earlier that in 1939, Germany only produced 449 Bf109s - and that is unacceptable. They had been planning on war since the early 30's and the manufacturing should have ramped up in anticipation.

By 31st August '39, LW have had 631 Bf 109E available (plus 400+ of Cs and Ds), ~500 of whom were delivered before April 1st. These 449 examples you mentioned were delivered from Sept 1st to Dec 31st.
(per Dancey and Vajda, pg. 53)
German aero industry was unable to meet the plans for 1939 by 11-12%, per same source.
 

pbehn

Colonel
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Oct 30, 2013
Again, back to the Luftwaffe's production numbers.
Had the German leadership put the nation on a wartime footing before or at the start of the war, then there would have been larger force for the Allies to contend with.

I mentioned earlier that in 1939, Germany only produced 449 Bf109s - and that is unacceptable. They had been planning on war since the early 30's and the manufacturing should have ramped up in anticipation.

It was mentioned that *if* Germany had produced 12,000 fighters in 1939, where would the pilots come from? Again, planning ahead would have resolved that issue.

As it stands, in 1939, the Luftwaffe had a headcount of 400,000.
By 1941, their personnel had grown to 1.7 million - so within two years, the Luftwaffe grew exponentially.

This should have been done prior to hostilities.
In 1939 -1940 Germany had a "formidable" air force. The question is what does formidable mean. Both sides believed that the LW was very strong, so the UK and USA ramped up production to meet the threat while Germany were content to be scaring the world with their threats. From around August 1940 the UK itself was out producing Germany in all types single engine twin engine and four engine types. The huge numbers of B 109s and Fw 190s that came after 1943 were achieved by stopping production of almost everything else. !939-1941 saw Germany capture vast areas that they didnt have the capacity to defend.
 

pbehn

Colonel
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Oct 30, 2013
I was what if the RLM hadn't approved so many designs ? My dream plan for the German air force would have had 4 fighters those being the HE 112 BF 109 FW 190 and ME 262 2 bombers JU87 and JU88 and 2 transports those being the JU 52 and FW 200 condor . No BF 110 No HE 162 No ME 163 no henikel or dornier bombers and none of the aircraft designed by Blohm Voss either . If the war started going better I might would approve the AR 234 blitz bomber but I'd have to see what shape we were in by then i figure stearming the number of models you use would make it easier to make higher numbers of aircraft
The Ju 88 became a great aircraft but was just being introduced in 1939 and wasnt sorted in 1940. There were only 18 involved in Poland 1939 and during the BoB it was the least numerous but suffered the highest losses (according to Wiki)
 

Admiral Beez

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As it stands, in 1939, the Luftwaffe had a headcount of 400,000. By 1941, their personnel had grown to 1.7 million. This should have been done prior to hostilities.
The German economy and people might not have withstood it. If in 1938-39 Germany was burning fuel and consuming strategic metals and resources at 1941-44 rates the German economy would have seized to a stop. How does a peacetime Germany recruit and pay 2 million Luftwaffe personnel? The Volk would be in rebellion by summer 1939.
 

Shortround6

Major General
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And you might ask why make 4 different fighters ? Because if u cancdl the BF 110 you will need the extra fighter (the HE 112) to make up for lack of 110s or at least thats how i envison it .

What is this fictitious He 112?

A few prototypes got an assortment of DB600/1 engines, maybe one got a DB 601.
Production versions got an assortment of Jumo 210 engines of which the best had 700-710hp.
Specifications on the internet are all over the place. From a 250sq ft wing to a 180sq ft wing.
Speeds are all over the place with some unbelievable speeds listed up to 317mph for a 700hp engine (25mph faster than a 109D)
One source says (could be wrong, there is a lot of stuff that varies from account to account) the He 112B had 317liters of fuel, the Jumo powered 109s had 270 liters?
But the 112 is supposed to fly over 50% further?
There doesn't seem to be any performance results from the planes with the DB600 engines. They should have been 20-25mph faster than the 109E with the same engine based on performance of the same aircraft with the Jumo 210s. And yet the Germans passed on this?

Sources can't even agree on how many were built. and not by 2 or 3. They can't agree but 30-40 out of a max of about 100 planes.

For comparison the He 112 is supposed to carry two 20mm guns and two mg and use 700hp to fly at 317mph and fly almost 700 miles.
A Hurricane carried eight mgs, needed over 1000hp to fly nearly the same speed and couldn't make it to 500 miles. Yes the Hurricane used a bigger wing.


Let me invent a fictitious plane for Britain that I will call the Spitfire that can fly 10-20mph faster than Spitfire and fly 50% further and carry the same guns all on engine of no better power than the Spitfire used.
 

Shortround6

Major General
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To ease identification why not call it a Mustang?
Oh, no, My Spitfire will be available in quantity and in 1940.
My Mustang will available in the fall of 1942 in quantity and will be faster than the P-51B and go 30% further without drop tanks :)
In my scenario North American bought an HE 112 in the spring of 1938 and learned much of it's secrets which rendered the P-51 partially obsolete ;)
 

pbehn

Colonel
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Oct 30, 2013
Oh, no, My Spitfire will be available in quantity and in 1940.
My Mustang will available in the fall of 1942 in quantity and will be faster than the P-51B and go 30% further without drop tanks :)
In my scenario North American bought an HE 112 in the spring of 1938 and learned much of it's secrets which rendered the P-51 partially obsolete ;)
I almost added, "you just gotta wait 5 years for the advances in tech".
 

tomo pauk

Creator of Interesting Threads
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Apr 3, 2008
What is this fictitious He 112?

A few prototypes got an assortment of DB600/1 engines, maybe one got a DB 601.
Production versions got an assortment of Jumo 210 engines of which the best had 700-710hp.
Specifications on the internet are all over the place. From a 250sq ft wing to a 180sq ft wing.

I'm not as great fan of th He 112 as Dave is ( ;) ), but some numbers are better the the others. Wing area of 250 sq was for the earliest examples, that area combined with huge thickness meant the Bf 109 prototype beat the He 112 prototype handily in the tests. The 112B - type that saw avtual service - received the small wing that reduced drag substantially, by what time the Bf 109 was adopted firmly by Luftwaffe.
Power of the best Jumo 210, the 210G, was about 670 PS at 3.7km.

Speeds are all over the place with some unbelievable speeds listed up to 317mph for a 700hp engine (25mph faster than a 109D)
One source says (could be wrong, there is a lot of stuff that varies from account to account) the He 112B had 317liters of fuel, the Jumo powered 109s had 270 liters?
But the 112 is supposed to fly over 50% further?

Numbers probably taken from the Heinkel sales' brochure?

For comparison the He 112 is supposed to carry two 20mm guns and two mg and use 700hp to fly at 317mph and fly almost 700 miles.
A Hurricane carried eight mgs, needed over 1000hp to fly nearly the same speed and couldn't make it to 500 miles. Yes the Hurricane used a bigger wing.

I chuckle every time the people use Hurricane as some benchmark for speed and range ;)

Let me invent a fictitious plane for Britain that I will call the Spitfire that can fly 10-20mph faster than Spitfire and fly 50% further and carry the same guns all on engine of no better power than the Spitfire used.

Any details?
 

Shortround6

Major General
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I'm not as great fan of th He 112 as Dave is ( ;) ), but some numbers are better the the others. Wing area of 250 sq was for the earliest examples, that area combined with huge thickness meant the Bf 109 prototype beat the He 112 prototype handily in the tests. The 112B - type that saw avtual service - received the small wing that reduced drag substantially, by what time the Bf 109 was adopted firmly by Luftwaffe.
Power of the best Jumo 210, the 210G, was about 670 PS at 3.7km.



Numbers probably taken from the Heinkel sales' brochure?



I chuckle every time the people use Hurricane as some benchmark for speed and range ;)



Any details?

The text in Wiki doesn't seem too bad but then they use the specifications for the 112A V4 o_O
and as you read a bunch of websites it doesn't get much better.
5237280cc3ec07ddade9d9b5f2aa9152.jpg

Trying to match the speed (or range?) with the dimensions of the plane and power of the engine listed is pretty hard.
Performance of the plane in Wiki is with open cockpit? And big wing?

If you don't like the Hurricane as as bench mark try the French D. 520 in the earlier versions.
I would note that the HE 112 never seems to use exhaust thrust.
The He 100 was flying in 1938 which really makes one wonder about the suitability of the 112 as a wonder weapon?
 

pbehn

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Oct 30, 2013
I chuckle every time the people use Hurricane as some benchmark for speed and range ;)
A bench mark was a point on a work bench from which measurements were taken and/or known. In the modern world the term is "datum point". In conversation a bench mark could be lowest value expected or the average. In terms of pre war monoplanes the Hurricane is an ideal "benchmark". Its performance was representative of the minimum that could be expected.
 

tomo pauk

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Apr 3, 2008
The text in Wiki doesn't seem too bad but then they use the specifications for the 112A V4 o_O
and as you read a bunch of websites it doesn't get much better.
Trying to match the speed (or range?) with the dimensions of the plane and power of the engine listed is pretty hard.
Performance of the plane in Wiki is with open cockpit? And big wing?

A very bad choice of a version to have the specs listed under the 'Specifications' paragraph indeed. Speed figures are IMO very suspect for such a draggy A/C.
German-language Wikipedia does a much better job, choosing a version that was actually a viable combat aircraft. Nitpick there might be that they list the engine's rated altitude with ram effect accounted for?
The book 'He 112 in action' is also a very good source, if not perfect; cheap, too.

If you don't like the Hurricane as as bench mark try the French D. 520 in the earlier versions.
I would note that the HE 112 never seems to use exhaust thrust.
The He 100 was flying in 1938 which really makes one wonder about the suitability of the 112 as a wonder weapon?

I've newer said the He 112 as-is was the answer to the German woes :)
He 112B certainly used the exhaust thrust, note the neat exhaust stacks layout. Not from the day one, though.
D.520 performance figures seems to be more realistic than these of the He 112.
 

33k in the air

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How do you stop the russians you ask ? The same way we stopped the germans round the clock bombing . And since the germans could base their fighters in the former chezchsolvika the range issue wouldnt be an issue .

For 'Round the clock' bombing to be effective, you need three things:

(1) Lots of four-engine heavy bombers, which require a huge amount of resources to produce and operate;
(2) Various electronic navigation and targeting devices and techniques to make nighttime bombing sufficiently accurate;
(3) Long-range fighter escorts to make daytime bombing effective.

And, arguably, there's a 3A: daytime bombing needs its own targeting devices in order to bomb usefully in cloudy weather.
 

Shortround6

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A bench mark was a point on a work bench from which measurements were taken and/or known. In the modern world the term is "datum point". In conversation a bench mark could be lowest value expected or the average. In terms of pre war monoplanes the Hurricane is an ideal "benchmark". Its performance was representative of the minimum that could be expected.
A bit harsh on the Hurri I think.

MS406-12f.jpg

full.jpg

and from the far east
9951f27b5f030a540d3458155c8643e7.jpg


The Hurri was much more middle of road than minimum.
 
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pbehn

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Oct 30, 2013
A bit harsh on the Hurri I think.

image.php

View attachment 676769
and from the far east
View attachment 676770

The Hurri was much more middle of road than minimum.
Not an expert, but they seem to have metal wings and three blade propellers, the Hurricane didnt get them until 1939-40, long after the He 112 was rejected. My post was only about what the term "benchmark" means. Edit And the Hurricane didnt sacrifice itself for speed. It was a nice plane to fly, good on take off and landing, good visibility and could turn with anything.
 

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