Streamlining the German air force ?

[VA5124]

I was what if the RLM hadn't approved so many designs ? My dream plan for the German air force would have had 4 fighters those being the HE 112 BF 109 FW 190 and ME 262 2 bombers JU87 and JU88 and 2 transports those being the JU 52 and FW 200 condor . No BF 110 No HE 162 No ME 163 no henikel or dornier bombers and none of the aircraft designed by Blohm Voss either . If the war started going better I might would approve the AR 234 blitz bomber but I'd have to see what shape we were in by then i figure stearming the number of models you use would make it easier to make higher numbers of aircraft

 

[Admiral Beez]

I was what if the RLM hadn't approved so many designs ? My dream plan for the German air force would have had 4 fighters those being the HE 112 BF 109 FW 190 and ME 262 2 bombers JU87 and JU88 and 2 transports those being the JU 52 and FW 200 condor . No BF 110 No HE 162 No ME 163 no henikel or dornier bombers and none of the aircraft designed by Blohm Voss either . If the war started going better I might would approve the AR 234 blitz bomber but I'd have to see what shape we were in by then i figure stearming the number of models you use would make it easier to make higher numbers of aircraft

Challenge is that we're picking the winners in hindsight.

With hindsight we can propose that Germany focus only on what gives them the best shot of defeating Russia before the end of 1942. That means just produce tons of Bf 109s, Ju 87s, Ju 88s and Ju 52s. While we're at it, stop the Panzer III earlier and produce as many Panzer IVs, 4x4 Blitz trucks/tankers and halftracks (transport, artillery tractors and infantry carriers) as possible. Skip the Fw 190, Panzer V and VI, Me 262, etc..... To have any chance of victory in Russia, Germany needs mass production and excellent logistical support, including fuel and spares for their aircraft, tanks, etc. And skip the battleships.

Back burner everything else, since if Germany is still fighting in 1943, she's toast no matter what wunder aircraft and super tanks they have.

 

[GrauGeist]

The main issue early on, was manufacturing.

You don't start a war and wait until you're losing to ramp up production of aircraft.

You do it beforehand...

 

[Shortround6]

A lot of these streamline threads do use hindsight, they also pick the best versions of some aircraft (or even hypothetical ones) and not the ones that were in service in some of the early campaigns.

4 fighters those being the HE 112 BF 109 FW 190 and ME 262.

The He 112 wasn't used by the German air force in combat units.
You have about 5 years between the He112 and Me 262.

2 bombers JU87 and JU88................... no henikel or dornier bombers.

In 1939-40 that means no real number of twin engine bombers at all. The Ju-88 wasn't made in large numbers and the early versions could not carry the bomb load of the later versions.
Without He 111s you have a very poor bomber capability indeed in 1939-40. British win the BoB almost by default because the Ju 87 and the Ju-88 won't do the job.
From wiki" The flagship Ju 88 A-4 went into service during the closing days of the Battle of Britain. Although slower than the A-1, it solved nearly all of the troubles of the A-1"

So until you get enough A-4s the Ju-88 won't do the job. Even if you build twice as many by stopping production of some the other aircraft.

Somewhat the same in Russia in 1941. The He 111 will carry more bombs further than the Ju 88. It may not be as fast but the Ju 88s speed was something of an illusion in 1940/41.
The cruise speed of the Ju 88A-4 was around 230-248mph at around 16,000-18,000ft (?), faster than an He 111 but not anywhere near enough to out run Russian fighters.
You also are not going to fly very far. You only have 369 imp gallons of fuel unless you put a fuel tank inside the bomb bay but then if you do that you have to put the bombs on the outside slowing the bomber even more.

The Ju 52 was one of the big failures of the German aircraft procurement. It used three engines to do what other transports need two engines to do. It used up much more fuel per ton/mile of cargo delivered. It was obsolete in 1934. Continued manufacture of such a machine in the late 30s was foolishness. Go ahead, build hundreds more in the early 40s and watch them suck up fuel like an Oompa band at Octoberfest.

German tank production was a bit more complicated that is being looked at. In 1939-40 the MK IIIs carried armor piercing guns, the 37mm and the short 50mm weren't very good but the short 75mm in the early MK IV was actually worse. The Germans don't get the L43 75mm gun until March of 1942. The L-48 shows up a bit later but is a minor change. Unless you can come up with hundreds of MK IVs with some sort of decent AP gun in April/May of 1941 don't bother to invade Russia. The MK IIIs did the fighting, the MK IVs provided smoke and HE support.

We also run into the "Skip the Battleships argument". Which if we follow it up, would allow the British to cancel one or more the KGV class. Build more escorts to fight the U-boats with, and/or build hundreds more tanks of their own, knock the Italians out of the war in 1940/41 and so on.

Don't look at the Bismarck and Tirpitz on a sports "score board". Look at what it cost the British (and Americans) to provide escorts to Convoys, mount air raids/special operations and otherwise counter the threat. every time an old R class sailed the Atlantic or a KGV sailed ton a Murmansk run in was thousands of tons of fuel oil, and there wee lots of runs with zero contact.




2 bombers JU87

 

[VA5124]

Challenge is that we're picking the winners in hindsight.

With hindsight we can propose that Germany focus only on what gives them the best shot of defeating Russia before the end of 1942. That means just produce tons of Bf 109s, Ju 87s, Ju 88s and Ju 52s. While we're at it, stop the Panzer III earlier and produce as many Panzer IVs, 4x4 Blitz trucks/tankers and halftracks (transport, artillery tractors and infantry carriers) as possible. Skip the Fw 190, Panzer V and VI, Me 262, etc..... To have any chance of victory in Russia, Germany needs mass production and excellent logistical support, including fuel and spares for their aircraft, tanks, etc. And skip the battleships.

Back burner everything else, since if Germany is still fighting in 1943, she's toast no matter what wunder aircraft and super tanks they have.

The 112 262 and FW 200 still need to be made to have a chance and the FW 190

 

[Shortround6]

112

What 112?

Jumo 210 engine, only went over 300mph when going downhill.
Largest users were Japan (trainers) and Rumania.
17-19 went to Spain before 1939.


The Fw 200 was not a good tactical transport and it was not a good bomber.
It was a very good record setting plane but it wasn't strong enough to stand up to hard usage and it broke a lot.

 

[VA5124]

What 112?

View attachment 676524
Jumo 210 engine, only went over 300mph when going downhill.
Largest users were Japan (trainers) and Rumania.
17-19 went to Spain before 1939.


The Fw 200 was not a good tactical transport and it was not a good bomber.
It was a very good record setting plane but it wasn't strong enough to stand up to hard usage and it broke a lot.

HE 112 could accepted and mass procured to make up for the loss of the 110 . The condor could be used as a martime patrol aircraft thanks to its big size meaning lots of fuel and weapons .

 

[Admiral Beez]

The main issue early on, was manufacturing.

I don't think Germany had a shortage of aircraft until the war was already lost, but a shortage of fuel.

The 112 262 and FW 200 still need to be made to have a chance and the FW 190

No, by the time the Me 262 is ready you'll be facing thousand bomber raids, and the war is lost.

Once Russia is defeated, then sure, switch over to the new stuff, but anything that distracts from the immediate defeat of Russia by end of 1942 needs to be backburnered.

 

[GrauGeist]

Germany only manufactured 449 Bf109s in 1939.
Their numbers didn't peak until 1944, which saw 12,807 manufactured that year.

Don't you suppose that 12,000 Bf109s would have been handy in 1939-1940 when they did have fuel?

 

[GrauGeist]

What 112?

View attachment 676524
Jumo 210 engine, only went over 300mph when going downhill.
Largest users were Japan (trainers) and Rumania.
17-19 went to Spain before 1939.

The He112B was a solid performer.

One of the reasons that the RLM turned it down, was because they felt it would be redundant to have two similar fighters (in regards to the Bf109).

What the RLM missed, however, was that the He112B had a range roughly 200 miles over the Bf109 and was armed with two MGs (cowl) and two cannon (wings) at a time that the 109 only had 4 MGs (cowl/wing) and could have performed the roles the Fw190 performed, but from the start of the war.

 

[33k in the air]

We also run into the "Skip the Battleships argument". Which if we follow it up, would allow the British to cancel one or more the KGV class. Build more escorts to fight the U-boats with, and/or build hundreds more tanks of their own, knock the Italians out of the war in 1940/41 and so on.

Don't look at the Bismarck and Tirpitz on a sports "score board". Look at what it cost the British (and Americans) to provide escorts to Convoys, mount air raids/special operations and otherwise counter the threat. every time an old R class sailed the Atlantic or a KGV sailed ton a Murmansk run in was thousands of tons of fuel oil, and there wee lots of runs with zero contact.

Let's remember as well the Germans were plagued with faulty torpedoes for their submarines for the first part of the war just as much as the U.S. was after it had entered the war. That undoubtedly blunted the impact the U-boats might have otherwise have. (And of course add to that there weren't nearly enough U-boats at the start of the war to wage a proper naval interdiction campaign.)

 

[33k in the air]

Don't you suppose that 12,000 Bf109s would have been handy in 1939-1940 when they did have fuel?

But would they have had 12,000 properly trained fighter pilots to fly them?

 

[VA5124]

I don't think Germany had a shortage of aircraft until the war was already lost, but a shortage of fuel.

No, by the time the Me 262 is ready you'll be facing thousand bomber raids, and the war is lost.

Once Russia is defeated, then sure, switch over to the new stuff, but anything that distracts from the immediate defeat of Russia by end of 1942 needs to be backburnered.

Buliding all 4 means more fighters in the air which means they could defens from the USAAF and RAF raids

 

[nuuumannn]

It's worth noting that Germany didn't lose the Battle of Britain because of its aircraft. It had more bombers than the RAF had fighters, it had a fighter that had superior performance to the RAF's fighters. It had a formidable arsenal of support, such as coastal recon aircraft, search and rescue floatplanes and a wide variety of photographic reconnaissance types. It had all the equipment necessary to wage a consistent campaign against Britain, after all, it had successfully invaded most of Western Europe, so why did it lose? And please don't say because the Bf 109 didn't have a long range drop tank...

(Psst, something to do with bad leadership at the top...)

 

[Admiral Beez]

Buliding all 4 means more fighters in the air which means they could defens from the USAAF and RAF raids

Once the 8th AF is bombing Germany the war is lost. All Germany can do then is delay the inevitable. The only option for Germany is to win in Russia before end of 1942. Most will argue this is highly unlikely regardless, but focused production resulting in larger quantities of fewer aircraft may help.

 

[33k in the air]

Buliding all 4 means more fighters in the air which means they could defens from the USAAF and RAF raids

Not unless you have the trained pilots to fly them.

Once the 8th AF is bombing Germany the war is lost. All Germany can do then is delay the inevitable. The only option for Germany is to win in Russia before end of 1942. Most will argue this is highly unlikely regardless, but focused production resulting in larger quantities of fewer aircraft may help.

I'd amend that to say once the USAAF has plenty of long-range escorts the war is lost.

 

[GrauGeist]

Again, back to the Luftwaffe's production numbers.
Had the German leadership put the nation on a wartime footing before or at the start of the war, then there would have been larger force for the Allies to contend with.

I mentioned earlier that in 1939, Germany only produced 449 Bf109s - and that is unacceptable. They had been planning on war since the early 30's and the manufacturing should have ramped up in anticipation.

It was mentioned that *if* Germany had produced 12,000 fighters in 1939, where would the pilots come from? Again, planning ahead would have resolved that issue.

As it stands, in 1939, the Luftwaffe had a headcount of 400,000.
By 1941, their personnel had grown to 1.7 million - so within two years, the Luftwaffe grew exponentially.

This should have been done prior to hostilities.

 

[VA5124]

Again, back to the Luftwaffe's production numbers.
Had the German leadership put the nation on a wartime footing before or at the start of the war, then there would have been larger force for the Allies to contend with.

I mentioned earlier that in 1939, Germany only produced 449 Bf109s - and that is unacceptable. They had been planning on war since the early 30's and the manufacturing should have ramped up in anticipation.

It was mentioned that *if* Germany had produced 12,000 fighters in 1939, where would the pilots come from? Again, planning ahead would have resolved that issue.

As it stands, in 1939, the Luftwaffe had a headcount of 400,000.
By 1941, their personnel had grown to 1.7 million - so within two years, the Luftwaffe grew exponentially.

This should have been done prior to hostilities.

And you might ask why make 4 different fighters ? Because if u cancdl the BF 110 you will need the extra fighter (the HE 112) to make up for lack of 110s or at least thats how i envison it .

 

[VA5124]

Once the 8th AF is bombing Germany the war is lost. All Germany can do then is delay the inevitable. The only option for Germany is to win in Russia before end of 1942. Most will argue this is highly unlikely regardless, but focused production resulting in larger quantities of fewer aircraft may help.

How do you stop the russians you ask ? The same way we stopped the germans round the clock bombing . And since the germans could base their fighters in the former chezchsolvika the range issue wouldnt be an issue .

 

[GrauGeist]

And you might ask why make 4 different fighters ? Because if u cancdl the BF 110 you will need the extra fighter (the HE 112) to make up for lack of 110s or at least thats how i envison it .

Well, keep in mind that the "heavy fighter" concept was popular in the late 30's with all the leading nations around the globe.

The British, Germans, Americans, Italians, Dutch, Japanese, French and so on, felt that this would be a key part of a modern air force.