Sukhoi Fighter Starting Flight Tests

I don't want to sound complacent but Russia seems to have a long way to go. India who have a major share in this aircraft seem to be after some major changes already even wanting it to be a two seat aircraft. This throws up some question marks as to its systems as the only reason I can think of is pilot workload.
Also this is the first public flight and Russia has a history of first class designs that don't make it into production in any numbers.
Finally Their budget is under huge pressure and these will not be cheap. US and European budgets are being cut but at least a number of the aircraft are in production.
I read the other day that the Russian Navy only added one surface warship in the last five years, even the RN did better than that

The Indian backing and money gives the T-50 a chance,

I wonder if a two seater will be less stealty...

As far as i can see again, how many times have the USSR copied and modified an existing design, yeah looks nice, sure it will work pretty well but its nothing original. As for India being a part of it, it pisses me off, thousands of USA jobs have gone to India and they are in bed with Soviets, sorry BS! We are dropping our shorts and losing a ton of jobs to India, more BS!. Not trying to post political, just reality.

Torch, we don't know for sure how original or not the T-50 is because all we have seen are pictures of the first prototype. The Russians have been eveloping plasma stealth for many years and one thing we are waiting for is to see if they have got it sufficiently developed to put it on this aircraft. If they answer is yes, then that is one very original and unique feature. But as I said, we don't know yet.

India - since they became independant from the UK in 1947 they have fiercely protected this independance and are unaligned. They are not in bed with anybody. Look at their Air Force in the past, Mig 21's and Sukhoi Flankeres operating alongside BAe Sea Harriers and Sepecat Jaguars = Good for them, I say.

Whatever is happening to US (and British!) jobs is not THEIR fault, its OURS. They do not have to feel beholden to America or anywhere else.

Addressing a point made earlier - The Indian input into this aircraft is mainly financial in return for a future order, changes requested by them should not be viewed as a failing of the design, every customer of every type makesw changes that suit their needs - hence the argument over the UK and Israel getting source codes for the F-35.

Torch said:

As far as i can see again, how many times have the USSR copied and modified an existing design, yeah looks nice, sure it will work pretty well but its nothing original. As for India being a part of it, it pisses me off, thousands of USA jobs have gone to India and they are in bed with Soviets, sorry BS! We are dropping our shorts and losing a ton of jobs to India, more BS!. Not trying to post political, just reality.

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If by jobs-going-overseas you mean 'outsourcing', well, the blame lies to the corporations, not to the Indians like.
As for purchasing planes, are you sure US would sold them F-22?

Waynos said:

Addressing a point made earlier - The Indian input into this aircraft is mainly financial in return for a future order, changes requested by them should not be viewed as a failing of the design, every customer of every type makesw changes that suit their needs - hence the argument over the UK and Israel getting source codes for the F-35.

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You certainly could be right but if we are honest, the jury is out until we know a little more. My thinking was along the lines that India must have a reason for making what is quite a significant change.

You are certianly right that we don't yet know enough to call it accurately, however I note as well that India's Flankers are also two seaters while the majority of Flankers in front line service in the world are not, so I'm thinking there is a local operational reason for this. I admit I have not looked too deeply though.

Points taken and understood, Found out my company is doing layoffs again, just was in a po'd state of mind. The process is your told your layed off, you have to train your replacements(Indian) or no severence or any bennies, then when they are up to speed it's ba bye...And Tomo your probably right bout selling F-22's. I also know they're looking to buy C-17s and the latest howitzer units from the US.

Right You are Torch,I see where you were coming from because ....

The process is your told your layed off, you have to train your replacements(Indian) or no severence or any bennies, then when they are up to speed it's ba by

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Been there, done that. it is NOT a nice feeling.

BTW India has already ordered the Boeing P-8 (good choice) and is considering the F-18 (but I'm still holding out for the Typhoon on that one, MiG 35 has to be favourite though)

I wouldn't write off the F18 or Typhoon quite yet. India has often balanced its aircraft between East and West and right now the balance is towards Russia.
There are good political and defence reasons for not wanting to put too many eggs in one basket.

Torch said:

As far as i can see again, how many times have the USSR copied and modified an existing design, yeah looks nice, sure it will work pretty well but its nothing original. As for India being a part of it, it pisses me off, thousands of USA jobs have gone to India and they are in bed with Soviets, sorry BS! We are dropping our shorts and losing a ton of jobs to India, more BS!. Not trying to post political, just reality.

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You do know that the Soviet Union is gone right? You also know that India is a sovereign country and can buy from whoever they chose right?

Edit: I now have read the rest of the posts in the thread. Hope you don't get laid off and hope your day gets better!

Waynos said:

BTW India has already ordered the Boeing P-8 (good choice) and is considering the F-18 (but I'm still holding out for the Typhoon on that one, MiG 35 has to be favourite though)

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News from last week was that Typhoon was the current favourite. It really just comes down to cost/benefit; is the increased capability worth the extra unit cost?

I suppose it depends on India's long term aim. In the RAF/LW etc the Typhoon is directly comparable to the Sukhoi T-50 because it has to be.

If the Indians want it to be their medium fighter, fitting inh below the T-50, then maybe not?

It wouldn't be the first time. India had/has both the Mig 23 and Jaguar in the strike role.

True,and that did seem an odd choice at the time.

The cost of one airplane will be 100.000 000 dollars. This makes it cheaper than F-22. I really like how it looks, but engine exhausts could use some more work if we want a stealthy airplane.

Here are the characteristics for both the T-50 and F-22:

T-50

General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 22 m (72 ft)
Wingspan: 14.2 m (46.5 ft)
Height: 6.05 m (19.8 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m² (848.1 ft)
Empty weight: 18,500 kg (40,785 lb)
Loaded weight: 26,000 kg (57,320 lb)
Useful load: 7,500 kg (combat load) (16,534 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 37,000 kg (81,570 lb)
Powerplant: 2× New unnamed engine by NPO Saturn of 175 KN each[38],[44]
Performance
Maximum speed: 2,600 km/h (Mach 2.45) (at 17,000 m altitude) (1,615 mph (at 45,000 ft altitude))
Cruise speed: 1,300 - 1,800 km/h (808 - 1,118 mph)
Range: 4,000-5,500 km (2,500-3,100 miles)
Service ceiling: 20,000 m (65,616 ft)
Rate of climb: 350 m/sec (1184 ft/sec)
Wing loading: 330(normal) - 470(maximum) kg/m² (67(normal) - 96(maximum) lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.4
Armament
Guns: 1x30mm
Hardpoints: 10 internal, 6 external for R-74M Archer and R-77M Adder missiles
Avionics
N050(?)BRLS AFAR/AESA

F-22
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 62 ft 1 in (18.90 m)
Wingspan: 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Height: 16 ft 8 in (5.08 m)
Wing area: 840 ft² (78.04 m²)
Airfoil: NACA 64A?05.92 root, NACA 64A?04.29 tip
Empty weight: 43,430 lb (19,700 kg[3][178])
Loaded weight: 64,460 lb (29,300 kg[179])
Max takeoff weight: 83,500 lb (38,000 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Pratt Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans
Dry thrust: 29,300 lb[citation needed] (130 kN) each
Thrust with afterburner: 35,000+ lb (156+ kN) each
Fuel capacity: 18,000 lb (8,200 kg) internally,[3][178] or 26,000 lb (11,900 kg) with two external fuel tanks[3][178]
Performance
Maximum speed:
At altitude: Mach 2.25 (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h)[85]
Supercruise: Mach 1.82 (1,220 mph, 1,963 km/h)[85]
Range: 1,600 nmi (1,840 mi, 2,960 km) with 2 external fuel tanks
Combat radius: 410 nmi[177] (471 mi, 759 km)
Ferry range: 2,000 mi (1,738 nmi, 3,219 km)
Service ceiling: 65,000 ft (19,812 m)
Wing loading: 77 lb/ft² (375 kg/m²)
Thrust/weight: 1.08 (1.26 with loaded weight 50% fuel)
Maximum g-load: -3.0/+9.0 g[85]
Armament
Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) M61A2 Vulcan gatling gun in starboard wing root, 480 rounds
Air to air loadout:
6× AIM-120 AMRAAM
2× AIM-9 Sidewinder
Air to ground loadout:
2× AIM-120 AMRAAM and
2× AIM-9 Sidewinder for self-protection, and one of the following:
2× 1,000 lb (450 kg) JDAM or
2× Wind Corrected Munitions Dispensers (WCMDs) or
8× 250 lb (110 kg) GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs
Hardpoints: 4× under-wing pylon stations can be fitted to carry 600 US gallon drop tanks or weapons, each with a capacity of 5,000 lb (2,268 kg).[180][181]
Avionics
RWR (Radar warning receiver): 250 nmi (463 km) or more[94]
Radar: 125-150 miles (200-240 km) against 1 m2 (11 sq ft) targets (estimated range)[92]


T-50s characteristics are preliminary so yet to see them for real Can't wait to see the production model. Russians did it good.

you can't make stealthy exhausts on a fighter. F-117 and B-2 have them, F-22 and F-35 do not. The YF-23 tried stealthy exhausts but they were relatively inefficiant and impossible to vecor, and offered no protection at all from IR. You cannot disquise an afterburner, especially when detection systems like the Typhoon's PIRATE and missiles like the AIM-9X and ASRAAM can home in on the heat caused by skin friction at high speed.

Few more photos I found on the internet. Not significant in the terms of aircraft performance, but I find interesting that this aircraft apparently has aft sliding cockpit canopy. Not a feature you can see often on modern fighters.

Also the control surfaces seem to be on the small side

Waynos said:

you can't make stealthy exhausts on a fighter. F-117 and B-2 have them, F-22 and F-35 do not. The YF-23 tried stealthy exhausts but they were relatively inefficiant and impossible to vecor, and offered no protection at all from IR. You cannot disquise an afterburner, especially when detection systems like the Typhoon's PIRATE and missiles like the AIM-9X and ASRAAM can home in on the heat caused by skin friction at high speed.

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AIM-9L was capable to home on aircraft from any angle (all-aspect, as they say), a quarter a century ago.