Super Adolfine ?

[razor1uk]

if Germany had not have given a Declaration of War to the US 3 days after Pearl, when or if the USA would have DoW-ed upon Germany - their was allegedly much unease in doing so at the time - possibly why any hints to Pearl were ignored, to steer the masses..

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

AAA

Yes Aozoa, big guns to reach high flying targets, and cm radar and proximity fuses. Precision against quantity. Predictible targets like NY and Scapa Flow would be rather well defended in this way... after some time though.
I don't think the radar aiming nor the proximity fuses were ready at first for the big guns necessary to reach high altitude, so that would require quite a delay. That is, I don't think that the historical Allied AAA using thses improvement were capable of reaching neither 35 000 nor 40 000 ft. Of course i would be just an adaptation but there is a time window.

In 1944 anyway the two devices were quite new and I think, I guess that the anti-V1 AAA barrage of this sort in SE England was concentrating then all the available production. And weren't ready at the beginning of the V1 campaign, which started itself post D-day.

But it is true that the target would have to fly straight most of the time, or performing long and gentle turns.

I also agree that Mosquito above Germany loss rates are no indication against this new type of weapon. Although they should remain concerning fighter interception. Also German Flak did have radar control, in many target if not most that the mossie overflew, and included 102 mm big guns : but couldn't be as precise as centimetric waves radar. Hmm to what extent ?, against well signaled lonely plane targets some 10-20 km distant ? Of course there did have those proximity fuses.

However you need big guns, quite a lot of centimetric radars and new proximity fuses for the 'big' shells., and will not get these until, say in quantity by summer-fall 44. As much as the V1 is to my distaste, it should 'serve' also a lot in this high-tech AAA field, not only fighters.
So the question would how many AAA (fields' with big gun+cm radar+proximity fuses) would be available in Scapa Flow, New York and a handful of other 'hot' targets, by, say, July 1944 ?
Assuming other potential objectives would be left without these. There would be a big rush among the Allied to get these ready for sure, but wasn't there one already ?

It also depends on whether 'my' time frame, for the Super A readiness and deployments could be followed... I think they are correct from a mid-1943 schedule point of view, but how would reallity folllow this ? We do have the number of He-177 produced : 349 A5s from december 43 to august 44, + a number of A3s until june 44 (picking Wiki figures, there might be finer considerations.) Which gives the necessary room for some 10 Super A. aircrafts a month being reached by spring 44 then reduced to 5 a month, or increased ? without much disruption or the historical path, including V-weapon program. While I don't think any wild grand scale order would have ever been made, production might have been maintained post august 44. It fit the IIIrd Reich's tough position rather well, and its thirst for some shock to shake it off.

What sustainable loss ? Not big. I think anything above 5 ac per month would see the number of operatonnal aircraft shrinking.
But there again, like the 8th AF and BC in fall 1943, a switch to weaker defended targets for some time would have been a possibility to gather strength.

 

[Shortround6]

For AA guns the US had the 120mm gun, about 550 built during the war. None (or 4 sent to Northern Ireland in 1942 and some to the Panama canal ) deployed over seas. It was introduced in late 1940. Max ceiling 57,450ft. effective ceiling 47,400ft.

The British had the Naval 5.25 in gun, some placed on land mountings. Max Ceiling 55,600ft, effective ceiling with No 10 predictor and Fuse 208; 43,000ft.

Also the 3.7in MK 6 which was a 3.7in liner in a 4.5 in barrel. introduced in 1943. Max ceiling 59,300ft. Effective ceiling with No 10 predictor and Fuse 208: 45,000ft.

Minor damage could spell the end of these aircraft on long missions. How much of the fuel tankage could be fitted with self-sealing surfaces? Original Me 261 used a "sealed" wing as a fuel tank (integral tank/s), the self sealing material weighs a certain amount per sq ft or sq meter so even if you can install it, it adds hundreds (if not thousands) of pounds to a aircraft of this size/fuel capacity. Protect only some of the tanks? Most self sealing tanks worked well against rifle caliber bullets and small shell fragments, less well against .50 cal/12.7mm bullets and hardly at all against 20mm shells.
Even engine failure could mean a lost aircraft. It is one thing to fly 3-500 miles with an engine out and using the rudder to trim for asymmetric drag. It may be another to try to fly 3000 miles that way. How much "reserve fuel" is carried?

 

[tyrodtom]

All this trouble to deliver 300kg of high explosive just seems like a waste.
The Fritz X was a armor piercing bomb, meant to disable or sink capital ships. A
A lot of weight, and hard protective case to allow it the penetrate thru the armor and explode inside heavily armored ships. On some less armored targets, it went clear thru, and exploded underneath.
I don't think it would be of much use on most ground targets, it would go too deep, and it's small explosive charge do little damage.
Of course the warhead could be redesigned for softer targets.

 

[GregP]

Agree tyrodtom,

Short of attacking the British fleet in their anchorages I don't see the Fritz-X as all that much of a threat to ground targets and the damage would be slight in any case compared with a GP bomb. Certainly not enough of a threat to justify the development of yet anoother aircraft type specifically to carry a single Fritz-X at high altitude and long range. Sounds like an incredible waste of resources for not much return ... unless they could do major damage to the fleet at anchor.

That's a pretty nebulous "if." There IS the fact that, with the range of the Super Adolfine, there would be no anchorage out of range. So the British would have to expend effort to intercept and shoot down the incoming Super Adolfines ... which they could have done. Once the mission of the Super A was known, the radars wopuld be looking for them and the high-altitude Spitfires could certainly catch and shoot them down. Night bombing would be out of the question since the Fritz-X was optically aimed, so the defenders would have a good view of the incoming raiders.

 

[wuzak]

That's why I suggested air launched V-1s.

~1000kg of explosives, and can be launched a couple of hundred miles away from the target, somewhere out over the Atlantic, hopefully allowing the Super Adolfine to escape interception.

The downside is lack of accuracy.

But the Germans are never going to make any big dent in American industry - it is too big and the Luftwaffe's resources insufficient.

 

[bob44]

Something else to look at is the weather.
Flying to the US from Europe over the North Atlantic they would have to push strong headwinds up high. And the weather is usually pretty bad during the winter months.
But even just one bomber getting to the US would cause some panic and no doubt, a strong US response.

 

[swampyankee]

But the Germans are never going to make any big dent in American industry - it is too big and the Luftwaffe's resources insufficient.

The Rust Belt ran roughly from Pennsylvania through Maine westwards to the Mississippi, that was a lot more area, a lot less sparsely populated, than Western Europe. A few dozen bombers would be roughly as useful as the Japanese balloon bombing offensive, and it would make the US population really, really mad: partly because of the Pearl Harbor Attack (and partly because of racial issues), there was much more animosity directed towards Japan by US civilians than against Germany.

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

High tech flak and urgent modifications (of course not desperate! ) of existing US pursuit planes are two best responses I've read from Allied and especially Us country.

Proofs of inacuracy from a stratospheric dropped visually aimed Frit-x, are a sure way to ruin the whole concept this is true.

But I am certain short term enhancements in this field (accuracy) would have brought to an extent workable results and anyway : being given a certain width, large eventually, the 1944 acertained 'precision cone' of a high drop of Fritz-x does define a wide array of 'interesting' targets, for a 1944 'much troubled' 3rd Reich.
Although I agree it is hard to define and from this depends a lot.

Indirect Allied attacks like on the few noticable operational airfields eventually (for the ultra long range, America bound), and against its industrial production line for sure... are obvious replies from the Allied too (could it be the most efficient?)

I refuse the stated argument that the Frit-x would be, as historicaly it was, limited to high armour penetration employs and therefore unfit for factories and the like targets... This is 1944 Germany shall I recall, I think they could devise some General Packages too... Or perhaps have I mis-comprehended my whole readings from 1973 onwards?

The whole story of this Super Ad*lfine thing would certainly be a short term copy of the U-boat epic. Upon a few months array. Some 'happy days' to start with, on the G. point of view, then some nasty and really crushing dedicated effort from the Allies.
Yet a credible possibility.

Flak it some more !

 

[tyrodtom]

Even if they do redesign the Fritz X into a conventional bomb, it's still just maybe a 1000kg bomb.
One 1000kg bomb just isn't going to do that much harm.

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

It depends where it falls.
And what the 'drama' would be, purposely set up around it.

Multiple 'clone' attacks could put pain in the wounds...
Remember Germany went to great lengths to mount a spectacular multiple commando operation against several Russian power stations simultaneously. Up until the last days (finally sacrified against bridges in 45 iicr) This proves how 'appealing' these sort of operations were to the German camp in their own strategic context (ugh!), more or less rationnaly, but not totally idiot.
The Super A could provides these at a much lower cost I think.

[edit : and much better than the V-weapon program too]

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

Even if they do redesign the Fritz X into a conventional bomb, it's still just maybe a 1000kg bomb.
One 1000kg bomb just isn't going to do that much harm.

Nonetheless you are right.
I do not think the Nazy camp would/could have devised such a weapon system before the time frame 1943 (decisions and planing) to end 1944 (fuel.) That is too late.
And even, then, any best cleverly placed tonnage remains too small too late. Its truely longish repetition very questionnable.
However, if, at best, it could have offset the Allied final efforts by a few months (West.. and East!), then the original plan to throw A bombs at Germany would have gone through. But even this is too difficult a scenario, impossible, to seriously put into any August 45 anything. Reality till May 45 was appalling enough.

It is just a lovely 'would be' aeroplane, on the wrong employ (but were B-29s in 45 actually pretty ? aaarh.. They were nice planes designed for their task this is my point of view), yet with a probable support among the G. staff to get it running until dry.

 

[GregP]

Hi l'O.S,

The real secret to the Fritz-X wasn't the bomb, it was the fin setup with the radio control unit. So you are right ... they could attach these fins to any number of bomb package types. I' sure a suitable high-explosive bomb could have been devised.

I'm just not sure they could do ANY damage to speak of to the U.S.A. after the first mission or so. We'd be waiting and with radar we'd already be at height ready for them. It would be a waste of effort and crew when compared with the results obtained, not to mention the effort to devise a plane specially for the task that was absolutely going to fail after one or two small successes at best.

 

[wuzak]

I will go back to the V-1 flying bomb - which had 850kg of explosives.

That isn't much, but it is 2.5 times that of the Fritz-X.

Launching them from the air at a distance is the best way for the carrier aircraft to survive attacking the US. But their accuracy is going to suck.

But could their guidance system be altered to improve the accuracy? Taking advantage of technologies such as Naxos, which homed in on H2S radar signals on RAF bombers.

Not sure if the US had many radar stations on the East Coast, but maybe it could be tuned to radio signals?

 

[GregP]

When we got radar, one of the first uses was for ships. Even if we didn't HAVE many ground-based radars, I'm pretty sure they'd get a radar-equipped ship or 10 to sit on the East Coast after the first bomb fell.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there would be a STRONG reaction from the leaders as well as people, particularly on the East Coast itself.

 

[tyrodtom]

I will go back to the V-1 flying bomb - which had 850kg of explosives.

That isn't much, but it is 2.5 times that of the Fritz-X.

Launching them from the air at a distance is the best way for the carrier aircraft to survive attacking the US. But their accuracy is going to suck.

But could their guidance system be altered to improve the accuracy? Taking advantage of technologies such as Naxos, which homed in on H2S radar signals on RAF bombers.

Not sure if the US had many radar stations on the East Coast, but maybe it could be tuned to radio signals?

And what, take out radio towers ?

Without very detailed reconnaissance no one would know where a radio tower is in relation to a vital target. The Luftwaffe did zero recon of the USA.
Anyway the V1 had no terminal guidance, it had a crude form of inertial guidance that kept it on the course it was launched at, + or - many miles, sometimes accurate enough to hit London, the biggest city in the world at the time, I think.

 

[wuzak]

And what, take out radio towers ?

Better than falling into a field.

Without very detailed reconnaissance no one would know where a radio tower is in relation to a vital target. The Luftwaffe did zero recon of the USA.

The odds are they are going to be in and around the cities - at least in the biggest concentrations.

The Luftwaffe didn't do reconnaissance of the US - but they did have spies there.

Anyway the V1 had no terminal guidance, it had a crude form of inertial guidance that kept it on the course it was launched at, + or - many miles, sometimes accurate enough to hit London, the biggest city in the world at the time, I think.

That is what I was driving at - replace the crude systm historically used, with a homing guidance system, or something similar.

 

[wuzak]

When we got radar, one of the firsy uses was for ships. Even if we didn;t HAVE many fround-nbased radars, I'm pretty sure they'd get a radar-equipped ship or 10 to sit on the East Coast after the first bomb fell.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there would be a STRONG reaction from the leaders as well as people, particularly on the East Coast itself.

I would think that there would already be radar equipped warships on the East Coast - in Norfolk, at least.

If the super V-1s could home in on them and damage or destroy one or two....

It won't make much difference to the war - but nor would any attacks on the US the Germans could muster.

 

[GregP]

Are you sure they HAD homing systems that would fit into a V-1 in WWII?

I've never researched the question, and am not claiming it would be impossible but, if such technology WAS available to the Germans, why didn't they use it in London for better V-1 accuracy?

 

[tyrodtom]

There was nothing wrong with the Fritz X, except it's a armor piercing bomb, actually bigger than the V-1's warhead, but since it's armor piercing it has a low explosive to metal shell ratio.
But redesigned as a more conventional bomb, without armor piercing ability it'd be bigger than a V1's warhead.

If you're gonna fly that far you might as well deliver a weapon that will hit something for sure, than let loose a V1 that maybe will hit something.