Ta 152 Question ... Curious

The numbers come from the best books I could find at the time and that is usually the definition of a secondary source. I've never seen and original Luftwaffe victory or loss report and I'd wager 99% of the people in here haven't either.

65+ years on they are scarce and valuable.

I HAVE seen "translations," but have NO idea how accurate the translations were, The numbers should be spot on since the Germans used the same arabic numbers as we did and do.

Do YOU have any genuine victory or loss reports from the genuine WWII Luftwaffe?

What is this 675 for the Fw190D?

It's bait for you, Milosh. What else?

Erich said:

one of the problems with author's research is the 2 March 45 mission IV./JG 301 was slaughtered over their airfield by the 78th fighter group no way they could have intercepted Ta's on this date. this was also the last dae JG 301 performed anti-bomber missions as the as mentioned earlier did up jabo missions with anti-personell bomblets on the Soviets and US ground forces plus taking on the 9th AF P-47's like JG 300 Keils kill was nota P-51 but a P-47 and in my opinion did not shoot down an8th AF heavy.

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According to Lowe the reason IV./JG 301 were slaughtered was because while they were busy trying to attack the Ta 152s some Mustangs (unit not specified, but part of the bomber escort and presumably of the 78th FG?) were able to catch them unawares, shooting down 13 109s.

Erich said:

according to Reschkes findings III. gruppe had 35 Ta 152H-0's on hand not all completed, few tools low fuels and oil. Tests were admitted primarily for field testing of new and older pilots and high altitude observances whcih have been duly recorded in about every book on the planet about the Tank.

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Apparently one reason for the low serviceability figures was water contamination of fuel.

GregP said:

It's bait for you, Milosh. What else?

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Since you can't explain the 675 number, I contend that is the total number Dora9s delivered to the Luftwaffe.

Can you confirm that everyone of the D-9s in the list was built? (can someone please translate the text)

Hi Milosh,

Your numbers above add up to 1805 for the Fw 190D-9 ... exactly the same as my chart shows. And there is no document number so it could come from anywhere. I could print it ... not saying you DID that, saying there is no document ID in this scan for confirmnation of some source.

And I DO see the ~ (approximately equals), which means it isn't certain, probably due to some being not delivered or completed due to bomb damage in production or pre-delivery or whatever.

Everything I have read says no exact numbers are known, but I DID find some estimates with primary source references years ago that I was able to access and the numbers were correct ... but I couldn't read the German text.

In all seriousness, Milosh, I am looking for the real numbers delivered, not the werknumbers assigned for production, and have little to actually GO on ... We better stop baiting each other and cooperate here, huh? The truth is what we ALL want. Not something that inflates either side or reduces either side.

This long past the war, we're probably the last generation that is interested in the slightest. If WE don't get it right, who else is interested enough to do so?

I'd share my produciton numbers (and other data) that I have, but can't post a .xls or .xlsx file. Tough to continue from there except by snail mail or email.

I don't want to argue in the slightest ... I want to find out how many were produced and what the performance was and the Max CL (or CL graph) if possible. I already have wing area, span, length, etc. We've gone at it before Milosh, but it was all probably due to what the other one posted, not any inate animosity that exists ... at least I don't have any and will always respond nicely if not insulted.

When I get insulted, I tend to give it back ... human nature. I bet you do, too.

Let's stop and cooperate with each other. Whuddya' say? I really have no axe to grind. This is supposed to be fun, not confrontational.

When it stops being fun for the most part, I'll be gone ... and probably still restoring old aircaft as the projects develop. I have moved temporarily to a North American O-47 since the YP-59A is in the final stages before flight. My new goal is to get our Ryan Fireball flying after the YP-59A. We HAVE a GE I-16 jet engine and the rest is there except for a vertical fin. Just have to build that and it should be good to go. Look for it in, say, 10 years ... or more ... project restoration money is the limiting factor.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aviation/43994d1182379151-fw-190-variants-fw190-prod.jpg

Now if someone would be kind enough to translate the text.

Where did the 675 number come from for the Fw190D?

The data I believe comes from "Kagero FockeWulf 190 vol.1-4"

there are too many sources on the Ta not enough correct source(s) on JG 301 as a whole. 78th fg after action reports state that they annihilated the IV th gruppe over their A/F. have read them and it makes sense..in fact I will include possibly 5 of them and notes in my future work.....

Milosh,

The 675 was a holdover from a source I discarded when I found the breakout for D-0, 1, 2, 9, 11, 12, and 13. It doesn't belong there. The last time I worked on thaht file must have been 2 - 3 years ago and I simply forgot to erase that particular line. It has now been deleted and the number for the D's should be 1,850 in total counting all variants.

Sharp eye there, Milosh.

Thanks!

I'm still on the list for you new book, Erich!

I'd go with Jerry Crandall's summary of Fw 190 D production. He concluded.

"Since there are no known documents reflecting the quantity produced by the individual factories that manufactured the Fw 190 Dora series, it is not practical to base a scientific decision on fragmented data. With the information that is available, it can be concluded that somewhere between 1200 and 1700 Doras were produced."

That's a fairly broad band and if that is Crandall's best estimate as of 2009 I don't think anyone is going to do much better.

He does include a long list of known werknummern and their fates but I've never added it up.

Cheers

Steve

Love Jerry's work and have a few of them. He's a good guy (of course, this was at an aviation art event and he was selling me a print) and a great artist.

GregP said:

Love Jerry's work and have a few of them. He's a good guy (of course, this was at an aviation art event and he was selling me a print) and a great artist.

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Yes, and if you look at his acknowledgements, apart from the veterans, it reads like a whose who of Luftwaffe researchers from the last forty years or so. I really don't think there is a more definitive answer to be had.
Cheers
Steve

Just finished reading Dieter Harmanns' book on the ta 152, and it appears as about as comprehensive as you would be likely to find. Lots of manufacturing info, serial numbers, factory locations etc. One chapter on operational use, and a bleak, accurate depiction of the chaos that was Germany in 1945. Harmann states that they accounted for "at least" 10 victories for two losses, although a few pages later he also states that two more were shot down ( possibly unarmed experimentals???) on a ferry flight. At least 5 Soviet aircraft were accounted for, but I can't say what the Russian version of that is. As for whether they were H-0's or H-1's it also appears obscure, as records and personal accounts were some what fragmented at that stage. What did stand out was the pilots appreciation of the aircraft, which appeared to be held in very high regard by those who flew them in combat. They certainly made a much better impression than the contemporary Jet powered He 162. The one thing I found curious was the lack of comparisons, post war, with allied fighters. It was like nobody was really that interested to see how matched up. The book dispelled some myths for me at least, and by all accounts would be a worthwhile addition to any enthusiasts library.

pattern14 said:

...although a few pages later he also states that two more were shot down ( possibly unarmed experimentals???) on a ferry flight. ...

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At least they were flown by pilots from JG 11, so IMHO odd if they were unarmed at that stage of war.

Juha

GregP said:

Ta 152's delivered to JG301 on 27 February, so the Kiel victory on 21 February was before he got his Ta 152. It HAD to be in another machine.

...

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Reschke states 27 January . Keil's data from his logbook courtesy Lorant