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wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Of course this ignores the Me262 and a matured Jumo 004's potential.
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The Ta 152 was easily a more practical option than the the He 162, and would have made a far superior combat plane. The Ta 152 was far from its' potential, while the Heinkel simply did not even have one.
Of course this ignores the Me262 and a matured Jumo 004's potential.
I cannot vouch for accuracy, but here's what appears to be a fairly comprehensive list of claims:
The Hawker Tempest Page
But when would this potential have been realised? The engine that entered production in 1944 was less reliable than the prototypes built more than two years earlier. This retrograde step was caused by many factors, not least a shortage of strategic materials, something that would only become more acute as the Reich shrank under allied offensives.
The Me 262 (the only non piston engine aircraft in which I've ever taken a real interest in) makes a foot note to WW2 because it was the first jet powered aircraft to see active service. Even an ardent fan like me has to concede that in terms of the air war of WW2 it was irrelevant. It caused more consternation to the allies than actual damage.
Cheers
Steve
A number of more advanced versions were in development at the end of the war. The 004C included an afterburner for increased thrust, but was not built. The 004D improved fuel efficiency with a two-stage fuel injector, and introduced a new throttle control that avoided dumping too much fuel into the engine during throttle-ups. The 004D had passed testing and was ready to enter production in place of the 004B, when the war ended. The 004E was a 004D model with an improved exhaust area for better altitude performance.
A much more advanced model based on the same basic systems was also under development as the Jumo 012. The 012 was based on a "two-spool" system, in which two turbines, spinning at different speeds, drove two separate sections of the compressor for more efficiency. In a jet engine the compressor typically uses up about 60% of all the power generated, so any improvements can have a dramatic effect on fuel use. Plans were also underway to use the 012's basic concept in an engine outwardly identical to the 004, known as the 004H, which improved specific fuel consumption from the 004B's 1.39 kg/(daN*h) to a respectable 1.20 kg/(daN*h), a decrease of about 15%.
Mid-1945, early 1946.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_004#Variants
It may well be that Junkers was planning a series of more advanced Jumo 004s but the central problem, a lack of strategic materials such as suitable high-strength high temperature alloys, would have been even more acute: without such materials the greater complexity of these advanced 004 variants would most likely have led to even greater reliability problems during operations.
As I have argued on other sites, I think the Germans made a major mistake on relying on primarily axial flow engines. By the end of the war, German engine development had already slipped behind both Britain and American engines. Both the American J-33 and later the British Nene engine was run at 4000 lbs thrust in 1944. As far as I know, no German jet engine ran producing much more than 2500 lbs of thrust. Indeed, the American axial flow J-35 ran at 3620 lbs thrust in 1944, although it had production problems not cured until later, another indication of the development difficulties of the much more complex axial flow engine. The Germans had a lot of plans and concepts but many of them did not pan out and maybe more concepts would not have worked.Mid-1945, early 1946.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_004#Variants
As I have argued on other sites, I think the Germans made a major mistake on relying on primarily axial flow engines. By the end of the war, German engine development had already slipped behind both Britain and American engines. Both the American J-33 and later the British Nene engine was run at 4000 lbs thrust in 1944. As far as I know, no German jet engine ran producing much more than 2500 lbs of thrust. Indeed, the American axial flow J-35 ran at 3620 lbs thrust in 1944, although it had production problems not cured until later, another indication of the development difficulties of the much more complex axial flow engine. The Germans had a lot of plans and concepts but many of them did not pan out and maybe more concepts would not have worked.
Franz opted for a design that was at once conservative and revolutionary. His design differed from von Ohain's in that he utilised a new type of compressor which allowed a continuous, straight flow of air through the engine (an axial compressor), recently developed by the Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt (AVA - Aerodynamic Research Institute) at Göttingen. The axial-flow compressor not only had excellent performance, about 78% efficient in "real world" conditions, but it also had a smaller cross-section, important for high-speed aircraft.
On the other hand, he aimed to produce an engine that was far below its theoretical potential, in the interests of expediting development and simplifying production. One major decision was to opt for a simple combustion area using six "flame cans", instead of the more efficient single annular can. For the same reasons, he collaborated heavily on the development of the engine's turbine with Allgemeine Elektrizitäts-Gesellschaft (AEG - General Electric Company) in Berlin, and instead of building development engines, opted to begin work immediately on the prototype of an engine that could be put straight into production. Franz's conservative approach came under question from the RLM, but was vindicated when even given the developmental problems that it was to face, the 004 entered production and service well ahead of its more technologically advanced competitor, the BMW 003.
The Nene powered planes. The prototype Supermarine Type 392 (Attacker land version) was first flown on 27 July 1946.
And BMW 801s powered prototypes in 1940, but it wasn't ready for full service introduction until 1942; the Jumo 222 was flying on prototypes in 1941, but was not really ready until 1943. Considering that the Nene didn't fly on an operational aircraft in service until 1948 this means nothing about getting into service introduction.The Nene powered planes. The prototype Supermarine Type 392 (Attacker land version) was first flown on 27 July 1946.
Considering that the Nene didn't fly on an operational aircraft in service until 1948 this means nothing about getting into service introduction.
I have to disagree about this. The Meteor was in service in 1944, just about the same time as the Me 262; both were defensively operational, but the 262 had much higher speed, though lower engine life. The Meteor was used against the V-1 bombs and would have been used against German bombers if need be. Still, they weren't any more ahead of German developments in terms of getting engines into service, because there is only so much that could be thrown at a problem. Potentially yes, they could have invested more in their various projects and potentially had them earlier than historically with less reliability, but even then we are looking at 1946 at the earliest. The US tried to get its P-80 into service in Italy in 1945, but it was totally non-operational due to engine issues.The RAF was in no rush to get the Meteor into service because there was no need for it. It would be naïve to imagine that had the need for a jet aircraft developed the same attitude would have prevailed. More resources would have been poured into the project in an effort to accelerate development and introduction of an RAF jet. It would be a normal reaction to a development by the enemy.
Cheers
Steve
The RAF didn't rush the Meteor into service at all. It was put on 'Diver' operations which it was not particularly suited for. Beamont, who knew a thing or two about shooting down V-1s, tested the Meteor in this role on 26th August 1944. His verdict is a perfect example of English understatement, "it's not very good" he said.
The RAF made absolutely sure that the Meteor didn't get too close to the Luftwaffe. On deployment to the continent in early 1945 there were strict limitations placed on where it could fly. It was largely relegated it to trying to catch V-1s which it failed to do consistently. Like all early jets, including the Me 262, it lacked acceleration.
I notice now that you are talking about the war continuing for 'a few more years' rather than months to give the time for the Germans to develop their engines. What makes you imagine that they would retain their early advantage for a few more years? It seems unlikely to me even in this improbable 'what if'.
Cheers
Steve
You're making the assumption that the Germans worked on the Jumo 004 as a future pathway for development; they realized it was a dead end, but designed it that way because it was easier to get working and in combat without strategic materials in quantities that would make them cost prohibitive.
According to Antony L Kays books, the Nene was first run at 4000 lbs thrust on 27 October, 1944. The J33 generated 4,000 lbs of thrust first in February, 1944. The Germans had never even run an engine much over 2500 lb thrust, much less getting one into production.When did the Nene first power an aircraft? 1948, not much help in WW2 which is the goal here.
According to Kay, "On 21 April, 1944 the TG-180-A1 was given it first test. It gave a thrust of 1,643kg/sec (3,620lb/sec) for a weight of 1,044kg (2,300lb) and no serious problems were experienced". The TG-180-A1 was the J-35. It did, however, have development problems. Its first flight was in February, 1946.The J35 ran in 1946 for the first time, which meant it was still years from service introduction.
Which is why no centrifugal design was in service prior to 1945? Even then those designs were weaker than the developed Axial design of the Jumo 004. The entire point of the Axial flow design was it was easier to get into service quickly, even though the Centrifugal design was more efficient; it was more difficult to get into service quickly and needed many more years to get it into widespread service. The Derwent was the only centrifugal design that was in service, which was in 1945, with 2000 lbs thrust. The Jumo 004D offered more than that. Can you demonstrate that the Germans could have had a centrifugal design in service in 1943?And I think putting all their eggs into the axial flow design was a mistake. I believe that if they had pressed the much simpler centrifugal flow design that they could have had a single 4-5000 lb thrust engine, straight wing fighter fielded in late '43, in time to affect the air war over Germany. Possibly, such engine installed into a P1101 type fighter could have been in production by early '45, pre-dating the F-86/Mig 15 by 2 years.
That was a first test, that means nothing about getting an engine ready for production and service. Otherwise the Jumo 222 would have been ready in 1941 along with the Jumo 004.According to Antony L Kays books, the Nene was first run at 4000 lbs thrust on 27 October, 1944. The J33 generated 4,000 lbs of thrust first in February, 1944. The Germans had never even run an engine much over 2500 lb thrust, much less getting one into production.
According to Kay, "On 21 April, 1944 the TG-180-A1 was given it first test. It gave a thrust of 1,643kg/sec (3,620lb/sec) for a weight of 1,044kg (2,300lb) and no serious problems were experienced". The TG-180-A1 was the J-35. It did, however, have development problems. Its first flight was in February, 1946.
in terms of design and performance it would have been better than the Meteor or P-80.
Which is why no centrifugal design was in service prior to 1945? Even then those designs were weaker than the developed Axial design of the Jumo 004. The entire point of the Axial flow design was it was easier to get into service quickly, even though the Centrifugal design was more efficient; it was more difficult to get into service quickly and needed many more years to get it into widespread service. The Derwent was the only centrifugal design that was in service, which was in 1945, with 2000 lbs thrust. The Jumo 004D offered more than that. Can you demonstrate that the Germans could have had a centrifugal design in service in 1943?