Ta-152C equivalent to Tempest?

[wiking85]

The Ta-152 had a low altitude version with the DB603 engine, shorter wings, and MW boost for low/medium altitude air superiority and ground attack; this sounds much like the Hawker Tempest to me, but with a slightly weaker, though less complex engine. Is this about right or were there key differences I'm missing? How would it have held up against the Tempest?

 

[davebender]

Not sure why Germany would need something beside Me-109 for that mission. It had an excellent combat record at medium / low altitude right up to end of WWII.

 

[Crimea_River]

Reschke successfully engaged and shot down a Tempest in a Ta152-H at low altitude so....

It's all theoretical and once again, pilot skill can not be ignored.

 

[GregP]

There weren't enough Ta-152C's made to know. Reschke flew the Ta-152H and accounted for 3 of the 7 combat victories. Josef Kiel accounte for 4 more, not 5 as widely claimed (1 of his victories was logged the day BEFORE his unti converted to the Ta-152H), accounting for the seven now widely recognized as the best approximation we have. It logged 4 losses but some people claim only 2. Most sources recognize 4.

So the Ta-152C didn't actually accomplish anything to make us believe it could anything near what a Tempest ... a proven winner ... could do.

The Reschke encounter with Tempests seems to get better with telling and it well may be the Tempests simply didn;t see the Ta-152H's until they were bounced. After that, it was time to evade and if the circumstances had been reversed, the results might have been complimentary.

I make no claim except to say the war record of the Ta-152C is missing in action for a meaningful comparison.

The Tempest, on the other hand, shot down 638 of the 1,846 V-1's claimed by aircraft. It is said the Tempest achieved a 7:1 kill ratio in air-to-air combat and 6:1 against single-seat fighters.

So making meaningful comparisons is fraught with speculation, based on actual wartime achievements. It is possible the Ta-152C might have been a good one. The converse is also possible though unlikely. But there is simply nothing to compare in combat achievements.

Personally, I like the Ta-152's and think that if they had been developed and deployed in a reasomable time, they could have made a formidable force.

 

[Milosh]

Tempest made 240 claims of which 79 were Bf109s and 115 were Fw190s.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The Ta-152 had a low altitude version with the DB603 engine, shorter wings, and MW boost for low/medium altitude air superiority and ground attack; this sounds much like the Hawker Tempest to me, but with a slightly weaker, though less complex engine. Is this about right or were there key differences I'm missing? How would it have held up against the Tempest?

Supposing the war went on long enough for the Ta-152C to be deployed, it would come up against not only the Tempest V, but also the slightly more capable Tempest II.

The Mk II was found to be 10-20 mph faster than the Mk V below 20,000 ft, 350-1000 ft/min better in climb through the altitude range, slightly better in a zoom climb, faster to accelerate, better in the rolling plane, identical in a dive and only slightly worse in turning circles.

 

[CharlesBronson]

The Ta-152 was (mostly) a high altitude Fighter, not sure how that compare with the Tempest. The german tempest should be the Me-309 but that plane never made it.

 

[DonL]

The Ta-152 was (mostly) a high altitude Fighter, not sure how that compare with the Tempest. The german tempest should be the Me-309 but that plane never made it.

That is incorrect.

The Ta 152H should be the high altitude fighter, the Ta 152C was intended as multirole aircraft to follow the FW 190F as ground support and the FW 190D as low and medium altitude fighter and bomber intercector.

Armament 4 x 20mm 151 + 1 x 30mm, instaed of 1x 30mm and 2 x 20mm of the Ta 152H.
Wingspan of the Ta 152C was 11,00m instead of 14,82m of the Ta 152H

Supposing the war went on long enough for the Ta-152C to be deployed, it would come up against not only the Tempest V, but also the slightly more capable Tempest II.

The Mk II was found to be 10-20 mph faster than the Mk V below 20,000 ft, 350-1000 ft/min better in climb through the altitude range, slightly better in a zoom climb, faster to accelerate, better in the rolling plane, identical in a dive and only slightly worse in turning circles.

After Mr. Hermanns book Ta 152,
the Ta 152C1 should be faster at low and medium altitudes then the Ta 152H

Max speed with combat rating power 702 km/h and 736 km/h with MW50 at 9000m (engine DB 603LA)

 

[GregP]

Hi DonL,

I think the Ta-152C would have been a good one if it had been deployed in numbers after proper development, as would have the Ta-152H. They called them "production" but the first 20 aircraft are "developmental" or "service prototypes" unless it is a Piper Cub or something similar. A Ta-152 was not hardly a "simple" aircraft. It was intended to be world-beating fighter.

These formidable fighters had great potential and might have made a real difference if deployed a year earlier in significent numbers, but simply weren't ready yet and remain extremely interesting if not significant during the actual war. I wish they had been documented with a bit more certainty, but see disparate performance claims copuled with specifications that do not agree with one another in some cases.

I surmise these disparate performance claims were at wildly different power settings and condictions. There is a great deal of difference between a fighter at corner speed, using WER, and another at cruise not knowing it was about to be attacked from out of the sun, but I also don't want to fight about it.

Suffice to say the Ta-152's had incredible potential that was entirely unrealized in the real world. They remain interesting, but aren't fearsome in any manner with a total of 7 to 10 air-to-air victories from 43 or so delivered units of all varieties against 2 to 4 combat losses.

If deployed in numbers early enough, they could have made a real difference to the Axis powers, but weren't and didn't.

 

[fastmongrel]

Wouldnt the Ta152s equivalent Hawker opponent be the Hawker Fury the development timelines are very similar. The 152 got into service because it was desperately needed the Fury development was slowed and then cancelled by the RAF in late 44 as it wasnt wanted. Without the advent of Jets and a longer war both could have been the main LW and RAF types by say Xmas 45.

 

[davebender]

Problem is you cannot magically make jets disappear. Give Germany six more months and many Jagdgeschwader will have converted to He-162, which will have most of the early technical problems fixed. It will be an entirely new air war with USA and Britain rushing their own jets into service before technical glitches are fixed as they have no choice.

 

[stona]

Give Germany six more months and many Jagdgeschwader will have converted to He-162, which will have most of the early technical problems fixed.

First I don't believe there was a snowball's chance in hell of the technical problems on the He 162 being fixed within six months given the state of German jet engines and lack of materiel. The few He 162s that were sort of operational towards the end of the war were mostly falling out of the sky with no help from allied air forces at all.

More importantly how is the endurance, at most thirty minutes, going to be improved?

Finally, who is going to fly significant numbers of He 162s, or any other aircraft, jet or piston engine, for that matter?

It's a non-starter and a red herring both in the context of the war and this thread. "an entirely new air war", I think not. The air war was already lost by the Germans.

Cheers

Steve

 

[cimmex]

The few He 162s that were sort of operational towards the end of the war were mostly falling out of the sky with no help from allied air forces at all.

How many He162 lost JG1 by accidents, just curious?
cimmex

 

[stona]

How many He162 lost JG1 by accidents, just curious?
cimmex

Ten out of the thirteen recorded losses. That's 77% of an admittedly small sample.

Cheers

Steve

 

[CobberKane]

I imagine the Ta152 would have been a good match for the Tempest. Both aircraft represented a pinnacle of single engine fighter design for their countries. I don't think the 152 was ever going to be a 'world beater' though, even had the jets not arived. For one thing its possible superiority over be best contemporary Allied designs (Spit IXV, P-51D) seems moderate, and for another there were plenty of other fighters coming through (Fury, Hornet, P-51H) to take it on. Even had the 152 been available in numbers and competently flown I can't see that there would have been any repetition of the happy hunting time ushered in by the appearance of the first Fw190

 

[GregP]

Question guys,

A bit above Milosh said the Tempest made 240 claims with 79 Bf 109's and 115 Fw 190's. For some reason, and I did not write down the source, I have 266.5 claims by the Tempest in 17 months of action with 1,702 Tempests built.

Does anyone have a good list of Tempest claims, missions, action missions, etc?

 

[parsifal]

First I don't believe there was a snowball's chance in hell of the technical problems on the He 162 being fixed within six months given the state of German jet engines and lack of materiel. The few He 162s that were sort of operational towards the end of the war were mostly falling out of the sky with no help from allied air forces at all.

More importantly how is the endurance, at most thirty minutes, going to be improved?

Finally, who is going to fly significant numbers of He 162s, or any other aircraft, jet or piston engine, for that matter?

It's a non-starter and a red herring both in the context of the war and this thread. "an entirely new air war", I think not. The air war was already lost by the Germans.

Cheers

Steve

There needs to be some serious lateral thinking to generate a plausible scenario in which the germans remain competitive in 1945-6. The obvious variable to feed in is that serparate peace with the Soviets. This does not necessarily mean game over, however. The Soviets accounted for about 15% of air to air losses suffered by the LW, and all up about 28% of total losses. The percentage lost in air combat was relatively modest, but the losses from attritional courses....things like base overruns were very high.

But even with a 28% reduction in losses, Im still doubtful that the germans would be still viable for more than 3 month after the actual hisortical surrender. If the LW had risen up in strength in November-April 1945, it would still be getting meaatgrinded even if the LW was 25-30% stronger than it was

 

[Jabberwocky]

Question guys,

A bit above Milosh said the Tempest made 240 claims with 79 Bf 109's and 115 Fw 190's. For some reason, and I did not write down the source, I have 266.5 claims by the Tempest in 17 months of action with 1,702 Tempests built.

Does anyone have a good list of Tempest claims, missions, action missions, etc?

I cannot vouch for accuracy, but here's what appears to be a fairly comprehensive list of claims:

The Hawker Tempest Page

 

[Milosh]

Question guys,

A bit above Milosh said the Tempest made 240 claims with 79 Bf 109's and 115 Fw 190's. For some reason, and I did not write down the source, I have 266.5 claims by the Tempest in 17 months of action with 1,702 Tempests built.

Does anyone have a good list of Tempest claims, missions, action missions, etc?

read The Typhoon Tempest Story (Chris Thomas Christopher Shores)

 

[pattern14]

Problem is you cannot magically make jets disappear. Give Germany six more months and many Jagdgeschwader will have converted to He-162, which will have most of the early technical problems fixed. It will be an entirely new air war with USA and Britain rushing their own jets into service before technical glitches are fixed as they have no choice.

The Ta 152 was easily a more practical option than the the He 162, and would have made a far superior combat plane. The Ta 152 was far from its' potential, while the Heinkel simply did not even have one.