Tamiya's 1/32 P-51D, In Box Review.

[Lucky13]

Cheers mate! True, or just wait for the Revell OR Italeri re-issue!

 

[Paul6187]

In my opinion the Tamiya kit still out shines them all for the price. The ZM kit is $80.00 plus shipping which isn't too bad. and the Tamiya can be had at scalehobbyist for 108.00.
The Dragon kit is nice but it needs to have a better LG as the spring loaded one can be kinda flimsy and there are some other issues but on the whole after you are done it still looks like a P-51.
If you compare the Tamiya to the ZM kit you will notice that the engine sits really low in the fuselage of the ZM kit but that's about the only issue that I have with it. I really don't know which I would buy but if I had to choose based on company alone I would go whit the Tamiya one since I have two of their Spitfire kits and the only problem I had with them was me.

thanks for reading
Paul

 

[Catch22]

I have to agree after basically completing mine. If a hack like me can come out with what I did, it's a good kit. My brother's kind of building a Dragon one right now and it doesn't come close.

 

[drgondog]

I I will start by mentioning the two biggest misses I see in this kit, the representation of the Dzus fasteners and the lack of "early" dorsal fin fillet.
The Dzus fasteners on Mustangs are flush, this is not open to interpretation it is an easily verifiable fact yet for some reason Tamiya decided to raise the fasteners in a way that is quite visible depending on the lighting.

What exactly do you mean by 'curved' Dorsal fin for late P-51D-5NA's?

I have several thosand photos of various D's (no RAAF) but mant P-51D-5 through -25 including NT and P-51K versions. The field modified P-51D-5NA is a straight line to the point of fairing into the vertical stabilizer, the Production P-51D-10NA (and all subsequent P-51 dash numbers from 44-14053 and beyond) are 'straight'.

All original (no dorsal) P-51D-5NA's were modified in the field with the same identical kit that duplicated the production version. If there ever was a 'curved' Dorsal it would have been replaced to mfr standard with the subsequent 'straight' version, but I have never seen (or heard of) a 'curved Dorsal??.

This bothered me on the test shots as I could see them, they look wrong and will be a pain to correct with a beading tool on the very thin cowling parts, wrong move Tamiya.
Some will mention that the same thing was done on the Spitfire kits, to which I reply: I don't care, I'm reviewing the Mustang and two wrongs don't make a right...
When the Dorsal Fin Fillet (DFF) was added during production of the P-51D-5 (44-13902) it was originally curved as opposed to the straight one seen later (and in the Tamiya kit).

What source(s) ??
The curved DFF (referred to as swayback DFF) stayed throughout production until the P-51D-15 (included) which means that a lot of "famous" WWII Mustangs that modelers will want to build should have it instead of the late DFF offered by Tamiya.

That would not be correct. Further, the P-51D-10 was the first dash number block with the factory installed straight dorsal fin. If you go back and match what the 'famous' were flying from the perspective of Modelers - you should be able to find a high correlation between the model (-5, -10, etc) and actual photos of the aircraft in question. Like you, I have seen a lot of errors but rarely regarding the External details - Exceptions are P-51D-5 when the model manufacturer already had a later model tooled with the dorsal and wished to slip decals for a -5 when only the -10 (etc) was in the box.

As a side note the small square panels for the APS-13 antennas on the tail section w/DFF should only be there for aircraft 44-72127 and subsequent as well as earlier blocks retrofitted with the APS-13.

True that the -20 (and -10NT) were the first production versions but many prior serial number D's were retrofitted at the base Service Center - an easy retrofit
In my opinion a separate piece for the swayback DFF do be added to the D-5 tail section of the kit and resin tires (diamond, block and oval) are the most sorely needed aftermarket parts for this kit, everything else is secondary.

After a quick scan of my collection of P-51D-5,s the break point for pre 44-13902 serial numbers, seems to be around the first half of August 1944 for the ETO when the Dorsal (all straight) kits were added to them. By the same token the P-51D-10's were arriving in theatre in mid/late July, 1944 when my father got his first one (44-14292). The period identified (by his kill markings) suggest before it was badly damaged on August 15, 1944. Correspondingly, the first P-51D-15's headed for ETO left in October and started arriving at various Groups in late November 1944.

A gun bead sight to be mounted on the firewall for the earlier blocks using the N-9 gunsight as well as the extra manual ring sight would have also been nice.
Other missing parts include clear separate pieces for the tail light and the battery sump bottle, locking hooks for the wheels (maybe as PE parts) and a dust boot for the tailwheel.

A few P-51B/C's had the A-1 bombsight but typically ALL the gunsights were fixed optics N-3B's. The P-51D's arrived with N-9's and No bombsight ring/bead installed. In all of my 8th AF P-51B/C photos I haven't found one with a ring/post/'bead' installed. The K-14s were installed retroactively and not until either near VJ Day or post was was the K-14 installed at the factory.

This new kit like all those that came before suffers from an identity crisis, even with all the optional parts it is obvious that Tamiya studied a P-51D-30 and that's pretty much what you get in the box except for the missing square tipped Hamilton Standard propeller and the fact that the BC-966 (parts D51 D52) IFF transceiver is not to be used on most WWII Mustangs.
Without those what you actually get is closer to a P-51D-25.

or a late serial number -20NA/-10NT or even a retrofitted P-51D-10NA,-15NA/-5NT..
Either way you get an easy out of the box late P-51D, for any earlier block you will have to do some extra work.


For the record, the BC-966 mentioned above is the main component of the SCR-695 IFF set that was installed at the factory on P-51D-30's (that's why it's in the box) or as a field mod on a few earlier blocks such as some of the P-51D-20's and 25's deployed on Iwo Jima (also on many P-51B/C's and some Allison Mustangs but that's another story).
Contrary to what the kit's instructions say the inertia switch (part D53 behind the headrest) should not be used, it is a part of the SCR-695 IFF set and unless you build a Mustang that used it this part just like parts D51 and D52 should be left out.
Another feature that only belongs to late P-51D's are the underwing attachment points for HVAR rocket pylons, they should not be on any aircraft before 44-72227 (they come with the pilot's switch-box part D48) .
In the same manner the underwing attachment points for the drop tank fuel lines were different on earlier blocks than what is presented here (under parts A9 A10).
Surprisingly no plumbing for the drop tanks is included.
Other differences between early and later models include:
.

Only one last Opinion. I haven't seen the kit so I don't know if the complaint is that the DZUS fasteners are a.) raised above the surface, or b.)much more visible to the eye.

If the latter, the DZUS is very visible from twice the distance simply for two reasons - much larger than flush rivets on the surrounding structure above the lower panel and below the top cowling, and the screw slot to unlatch the DZUS is very visible.

You did a great job - our discussion is mostly surrounding the 'definition of Curved Dorsal' and the timing of the factory version. I'm reasonably sure you meant to say P-51D-10 instead of -15 for production Dorsal Fin.

 

[Tourist]

Hi drgondog,
sorry for not answering earlier, I rarely post here.
I stand by everything I wrote about the dorsal fin fillet "DFF".
The DFF was first introduced during the P-51D-5NA production (44-13902) not the D-10 production block.
This original DFF was curved "swayback" until the the D-20 block.
My sources are various, factory drawings, manuals and photographs, they all confirm my comments.

Swayback DFF:

Later straight DFF:

The difference is clear.
For more information about Mustangs you can check out the P-51 SIG.

 

[drgondog]

Hi drgondog,
sorry for not answering earlier, I rarely post here.
I stand by everything I wrote about the dorsal fin fillet "DFF".
The DFF was first introduced during the P-51D-5NA production (44-13902) not the D-10 production block.

Ray Wagner in "Mustang Designer" says that the dorsal was placed into production for the P-51D-10NA. Gruenhagen also so states in "Mustang". My father was shot down (and rescued) in WRF 44-13950 on August 18, 1944. It did Not have a production dorsal fin IIRC. The P-51D-5'w in the 355th and Experimental Scout Force at Steeple Morden did not get the mods until after the P-51D-10NA's arrived in numbers. The first converted -5 (in my 2000+ pic collection) that I have a confirmed date for is Sept 10, 1944. Serial 44-13367 OSZ So, we have a quandry. What is your source? If a picture, then you would have to definitively date it before mid August 1944 to even raise a question between factory produced or field kit modified.

This original DFF was curved "swayback" until the the D-20 block.

Check your sources again. The D-15 Block a.) was straight, and b.) is shown and referenced for 44-15048 on page 126 "Mustang Designer" by Ray Wagner. The -10 and -15 are shown below for visual reference.

My sources are various, factory drawings, manuals and photographs, they all confirm my comments.

What source from NAA do you have to reference a significant airframe mod that didn't also drive a Block change? The last -5 was 44-14052 which would be 80 aircraft that left Inglewood with this modification but no Block change. It is possible but I wouldn't believe it unless there was a documented explanation from NAA.

If you have a photo of 902 how have you 'dated' it?

Swayback DFF:

Later straight DFF:

The difference is clear.

Interesting that you would present the second picture as 'proof' as it is not a P-51D or K nor is the serial number performed in USAAF format. If this a/c has the Full serial including the leading two digit Contract year it is either a P-51B-15NA or a P-51C-10NT with a Dorsal fin Kit installed in field post August 1944. But dorsal is too short for B/C?

Normally the serial number for P-51B-15NA at the end of the series would have been say, "43-24900" but painted on tail as "324900" with the leading "4" assumed...Unless the serial number on the tail is a fake, that aircraft was built about six months before the first P-51D-20 rolled off the production line.. Why have you presented the first photo without serial number?

For more information about Mustangs you can check out the P-51 SIG.

I contribute to the SIG from time to time. I will look to see what Azleton has posted.

 

[Tourist]

I have not visited this thread in a long time.
Drgondog, since I started the thread in the hopes of helping modelers get the most accuracy out of their Tamiya kit, I have to correct your last post.

Again, I stand by my statements regarding the DFF.
It's a bit blunt but basically you cannot tell the difference between a straight line and a curved one (as seen on the photos you posted).
Check out NAA drawing 109-25001 for the swayback DFF and tell me if you see a straight line.

You also cannot tell the difference between a P-51D and a P-51B/C; the second picture I posted is P-51D-25-NA (44-73451) preserved in Italy (Vigna di Valle).
The plane was number "4323" in the Italian Air Force which is why you were confused.
Still, had it been a P-51B or C the angle of the spine and the fin fillet itself would have been completely different.
You looked at the numbers but not the picture.

Let's try again with period photographs.

SWAYBACK DFF:

STRAIGHT DFF:

Please, tell me you see the difference.

 

[drgondog]

I have not visited this thread in a long time.
Drgondog, since I started the thread in the hopes of helping modelers get the most accuracy out of their Tamiya kit, I have to correct your last post.

Again, I stand by my statements regarding the DFF.
It's a bit blunt but basically you cannot tell the difference between a straight line and a curved one (as seen on the photos you posted).
Check out NAA drawing 109-25001 for the swayback DFF and tell me if you see a straight line.

I did - and you are correct. Both 104-25001 and 109-25001 show a slight curve. Also very noticeable is that the B/C DFF for the late production P-51C 44-1xxx series and all Field installed DFF have a similar slight curve - as well as being about 10" longer than the P-51D design.

The photo with no tail number that you posted (above "4323") is not a P-51B/C. You might note that the leading intersection of the DFF in that photo (both photos) is at ~ Sta 248. The same reference point for the B/C per 104-25001 is at Sta 237.5

You also cannot tell the difference between a P-51D and a P-51B/C; the second picture I posted is P-51D-25-NA (44-73451) preserved in Italy (Vigna di Valle).
The plane was number "4323" in the Italian Air Force which is why you were confused.
Still, had it been a P-51B or C the angle of the spine and the fin fillet itself would have been completely different.

I agree - not sure what the B/C reference is about?
You looked at the numbers but not the picture.

Absent the correct tail number, there is a lot of digging on external features including existence of APS-13 (not always installed), rocket stubs, etc'

Let's try again with period photographs.

SWAYBACK DFF:

STRAIGHT DFF:

Please, tell me you see the difference.

I do. And just for the record, 44-13902 is the last production P-51D-5-NA Without the 109-25001 DFF. The first Production -5-NA was 44-13903.

 

[Tourist]

The photo with no tail number that you posted (above "4323") is not a P-51B/C. You might note that the leading intersection of the DFF in that photo (both photos) is at ~ Sta 248. The same reference point for the B/C per 104-25001 is at Sta 237.5

I know, you are the one who claimed it was a P-51B-15 or a C-10 on 9/11/12 (just above).

I do.

Glad we agree.

 

[grampi]

I have a 1/32 scale Hasegawa kit that I'm currently building, and I have the Tamiya kit on order. My only complaint (so far) about these kits is they only come with one propeller type...the cuffed Hamilton Standard. It would be nice if they would also include the Aero Products Prop, and the uncuffed, chisel tipped Hamilton Standard prop that came on later versions of the D model. Thankfully, these props are available from Ultracast and Grey Matter Figures...in fact, I think the ones from Grey Matters Figures are made specifically for the Tamiya kit, but either can be used for the either kit with some minor modifications...

 

[Tourist]

I saw that this thread was mentioned on another forum.
It seems like a good time to update some of my previous comments:

- The DFF was not added during production on P-51D-5-NA 44-13902 but appeared with the P-51D-10-NA block and was retrofitted to some D-5s.
The straight DFF did not first start with the D-20 block but very late during the D-15 (and K-15) blocks, possibly the last 5 or 10 aircraft for each.

- The armor plate was indeed mounted 2 1/4 inches lower before the P-51D-20 but the headrest cushion was not placed higher as I mentioned in 2011, the whole thing moved higher not allowing for the canopy to be fully opened.
No decals on the front of the armor plate (on each sides of the seat) for the early, lower armor plate.

On the early P-51D-5-NAs (possibly the first 250 ships) the top part of the armor plate was shorter allowing the cushion mounting plates to protrude on top, this gave the whole thing a rounder look.

- While both seats were interchangeable and randomly installed, the Shick-Johnson seat seems to have first appeared during the P-51D-15-NA production and was probably the most common seat on the last blocks (D-25 and 30s).


For those specifically interested in the P-51D-5 check the following thread out, it should give you pretty much all the info you need:
Eduards P-51D-5 WITH fin Filet, What differences are their to a later D model mustang