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The British were on the Path at least as well as anybody else. Then they went off the path and fell in the canal.
Yes, you still ended up with run of the mill designs (Cromwell) and some outright poor designs (Challenger and Comet come to mind), but you also see a much better design-test-re-design cycle.
The Soviets developed the T-50 - the best light tank in 1941 (and maybe during the entire war) which was in production and should be produced in much greater numbers than the T-34. It was far better than any Soviet wartime improvisations, such as the T-70 and any Allied light tank. In this discussion, the existence of the T-50 is persistently ignored, even though it was the tank that was to become the Soviets' main tank.Soviets don't have much in production, they skip over the sweet spots with the T-28 (way to big/complicated) and the BT-7 and T-26 good guns but 3 man crews have problems.
In the hands of experienced crews, even the early T-34 with all its shortcomings was unequivocally more optimal in 1941 (excluding the T-50). Unfortunately, the Soviets could not ensure its adequate development during the war (in mass series) due to numerous technological problems. And huge losses due to non-technical reasons conceal the true effectiveness of the T-34 in the initial period of the war. The Soviets developed the most adequate tank design concept, but abominably realized it due to low technological level. All others had a much higher technological level, but conceptually created less suitable design, which was either too complicated to be produced in sufficient numbers or had insufficient characteristics / numerous flaws, etc.The Early T-34s in 1940 have poor vision, poor radios (those that had them), had the BMG but that is were the 4th man was, not helping with the main gun which was the tanks reason for being.
Considering that no one could hit any target from a moving tank (perhaps with the exception of the Panther), this rate of fire on the battlefield was not a problem. The problem was to locate the target - the commander was distracted by cannon handling, and the quality of the observation equipment has already been mentioned.Just slinging in a bigger gun doesn't solve any of these problems. Look at the early T-34s in Russia. They had stuffed 76mm guns in a turret designed for a 45mm gun. Yes they had the 76mm guns but they had a very bad rate of fire. 5 rpm on a test range? 2-3 rpm in actual combat?
The Challenger was not a poor tank. Not wonderful but an excellent support for Cromwells and easier to fight than a Firefly not to mention having similar maintenance systems to the Cromwells, being a stretched Cromwell.Yes, you still ended up with run of the mill designs (Cromwell) and some outright poor designs (Challenger and Comet come to mind), but you also see a much better design-test-re-design cycle.
What about the American M24 in 1945? It mounts a 75mm gun in a 3-man turret, although it is arguably less efficient automotively and less well armored.The Soviets developed the T-50 - the best light tank in 1941 (and maybe during the entire war) which was in production and should be produced in much greater numbers than the T-34. It was far better than any Soviet wartime improvisations, such as the T-70 and any Allied light tank. In this discussion, the existence of the T-50 is persistently ignored, even though it was the tank that was to become the Soviets' main tank.
The T-50 had plenty of reserves for modernization - perhaps other than installing a more powerful gun (thus, the T-34 was indeed more optimal solution despite of all its shortcomings!). It is hard to say what it would have been by 1945. The M24 had weaker armor, otherwise it may have been undoubtedly better than the T-50. Still, the difference of 4 years of war had a big impact.What about the American M24 in 1945? It mounts a 75mm gun in a 3-man turret, although it is arguably less efficient automotively and less well armored.
It certainly was not a good tank. It was an OK tank. Yes it may have been better than the bodged together Firefly. They still hadn't come up with cupola for the commander. There was no stowage for ammo in the turret (?), there was in the turret basket. A number of rounds were stowed sort of behind where the bow gunner would have sat, had there been a bow gunner. How much this stowage intruded into that area I don't know. This may have been the idea for the 2nd loader (?), getting the ammo from stowage up to where the primary loaded stood? Armor was thinner than the Cromwell. Just 40mm on the turret side and that was plumb vertical. Rate of fire was???The Challenger was not a poor tank. Not wonderful but an excellent support for Cromwells and easier to fight than a Firefly not to mention having similar maintenance systems to the Cromwells, being a stretched Cromwell.
Charioteer had a few other issues aside from thin armor. One was the 25 rounds of main gun ammo. Another was that it didn't often operate as a "tank". Originally designed for a 3 man crew, commander/gunner, loader/radio operator, driver. A 4th man was added who rode in the bow gunners seat. In action the commander dismounted to observer the fall of shot and correct aim and the 4th man got from his seat on the left front of the hull to the gunner position in right side of the turret.I admit that the Charioteer suggests that they could have simply used normal Cromwells adapted to a new turret as the Charioteer took the 20 Pounder and was tested successfully with the same 105mm L7 gun as is going into the new USA support tank today. Before anyone says so, yes, I am aware that the Charioteer was classed as a self propelled anti tank vehicle not a tank given the thin turret armour.
It certainly was not a good tank. It was an OK tank. Yes it may have been better than the bodged together Firefly. They still hadn't come up with cupola for the commander. There was no stowage for ammo in the turret (?), there was in the turret basket. A number of rounds were stowed sort of behind where the bow gunner would have sat, had there been a bow gunner. How much this stowage intruded into that area I don't know. This may have been the idea for the 2nd loader (?), getting the ammo from stowage up to where the primary loaded stood? Armor was thinner than the Cromwell. Just 40mm on the turret side and that was plumb vertical. Rate of fire was???
Charioteer had a few other issues aside from thin armor. One was the 25 rounds of main gun ammo. Another was that it didn't often operate as a "tank". Originally designed for a 3 man crew, commander/gunner, loader/radio operator, driver a 4th man was added who rode in the bow gunners seat. In action the commander dismounted to observer the fall of shot and correct aim and the 4th man got from his seat on the left front of the hull to the gunner position in right side of the turret.
I don't know if the commander dismounted because of the muzzle blast kicking up too much dust, dirt, debris and smoke or if the tank moved under recoil enough to keep the gunner looking through his sight to observe the fall of the shot. It seems that the much heavier Centurion did not have that problem
Yes the 17pdr kicks a lot less and probably would not have that problem. On a standard Cromwell hull you are going to have an ammo storage problem though.
The job of the French tank gun (as it was the case with other people's tank guns) of 47mm was to outperform the armor protection of the enemy tanks. In that, it was more than suitable for the job.
It was also better than the 37-40mm guns of the day wrt. the HE performance.
I think the tank "powerful 37mm" (the SA38, powerful being one of the designations for it) and tank 47 are best assessed within their very particular use-cases, e.g employment in quite small 1-man turrets with emphasis on short ammunition and thus low overall power to be remotely easy to handle. With the 37 being constrained to boot by the requirement to fit the existing APX-R turret with minimal modifications (mask change pretty much). When that restriction could be lifted, you could fit bigger in a modified (Romanian 45mm conversion) or new (second generation French light tank turrets with the 47mm tank gun), even within the same turret ring (or rather same standard hull roof opening which the 2nd gen light tank turrets could fit).True but the French 47mm had very little stretch. Most other tanks didn't have much stretch either. Higher velocity guns are easier to hit with at 600-1000 meters range. Remember that the projectile will drop 16ft (4.88 m) in it's first second of flight. yes you set up the gun so it hits a little high in the first 200-400meters so you can still hit in the last parts of the 1st second or even the first 1/10 or 2nd tenth of the 2nd second of flight. The projectile will fall 48ft (14.63m) in the 2nd second of flight.
French were also loading 37mm guns of differing abilities in a lot more tanks per month than they were loading 47mm guns into. They were certainly using more of the HV (700ms) 37mm guns in the last few months though.
I'd say that it might be reasonable to expect that French, had they survived in a good shape by spring/summer of 1941, would've been introducing the better ammo for their guns, as well as the better guns. It is not a long shot that the spin-off of the 47mm ATG would've found it's place on the tanks and/or other AFVs. There are still the towed 47mm ATGs for the Germans to take into account, as well as the 75mm guns turned into AT guns.I do believe however that all these sub 700 m/s 47 and sub-800 m/s 37 with sometimes uncapped/APHE ammo were only acceptable precisely because a lot of tank building nations used excessively light armour even when more was possible or could have been designed for while keeping acceptable mobility, weight and reliability. Eg, the French tank 47 and 37 would have become really limited had France held and fought uparmored German tanks of late 1940/41. But when one accounts for what Britain or the Germans could reasonably have designed in the late 30s*, it is a stroke of luck that these guns found a favourable environment.
It is true, though in the case of the tank-mounted long 47, I remain unsure how long it would have taken the French to notice the urgency (sufficient number of uparmored tanks encountered) and to implement it. While it can be reasonably rushed in 1941 on the Somua (see IRL FCM concept in 1942) and Char B family (apply B40 setup on B1 Ter to minimize deployment time and risk*), even the future light tanks are a fundamental difficulty. If it only followed the intended schedule, you would only see it in early 1942 on the battle tank.I'd say that it might be reasonable to expect that French, had they survived in a good shape by spring/summer of 1941, would've been introducing the better ammo for their guns, as well as the better guns. It is not a long shot that the spin-off of the 47mm ATG would've found it's place on the tanks and/or other AFVs. There are still the towed 47mm ATGs for the Germans to take into account, as well as the 75mm guns turned into AT guns.
France surviving into 1941 also means the 6pdr is available for the British.
There is also a question of how many Pz-IIIs and -IVs would've Germans had for Spring/Summer of 1941 if the high-intensity combat went through the 2nd half of 1940 and into 1941.
French can play it safe: seen that both them and the British are fielding the very well armored tanks, it is only to be expected that Germans will up the armor protection of their stuff. Germans might've done that already in 1940, seeing that their tanks are vulnerable basically to anything with "AT" suffix in the Entente arsenal.It is true, though in the case of the tank-mounted long 47, I remain unsure how long it would have taken the French to notice the urgency (sufficient number of uparmored tanks encountered) and to implement it. While it can be reasonably rushed in 1941 on the Somua (see IRL FCM concept in 1942) and Char B family (apply B40 setup on B1 Ter to minimize deployment time and risk), even the future light tanks are a fundamental difficulty.
Back in 1938, the tank 47 was expected to benefit from research on 37mm ammo. Maybe the documents I am going to see in January(pertaining to ammunition and ballistic research) will tell more. Strictly speaking, French guns usually ran on 240 MPa pressure so there is room for a hot loading while retaining acceptable barrel lives. But projectile side, I'm not sure how much they can improve on an APC with already modern shape and materials (BC will not help as the potential penetration distance is very short) if they were looking at full caliber solutions (APCR and APDS were not the go-to solutions at the time in the French army).
Why is having no ammunition in the turret a bad idea for Challenger? It was considered an improvement in the Sherman.It certainly was not a good tank. It was an OK tank. Yes it may have been better than the bodged together Firefly. They still hadn't come up with cupola for the commander. There was no stowage for ammo in the turret (?), there was in the turret basket. A number of rounds were stowed sort of behind where the bow gunner would have sat, had there been a bow gunner. How much this stowage intruded into that area I don't know. This may have been the idea for the 2nd loader (?), getting the ammo from stowage up to where the primary loaded stood? Armor was thinner than the Cromwell. Just 40mm on the turret side and that was plumb vertical. Rate of fire was???
We have "what if" and we have historical.I'd say that it might be reasonable to expect that French, had they survived in a good shape by spring/summer of 1941, would've been introducing the better ammo for their guns, as well as the better guns. It is not a long shot that the spin-off of the 47mm ATG would've found it's place on the tanks and/or other AFVs. There are still the towed 47mm ATGs for the Germans to take into account, as well as the 75mm guns turned into AT guns.
France surviving into 1941 also means the 6pdr is available for the British.
There is also a question of how many Pz-IIIs and -IVs would've Germans had for Spring/Summer of 1941 if the high-intensity combat went through the 2nd half of 1940 and into 1941.
There is no doubt that Germans have had the best tank doctrine in the world in that time. At least the Pz-III and -IV were a product of that doctrine, with the 3-men turret crews and balanced (if not actually great) guns' outfit.This has been a bit long but it helps show that the Germans, while not reacting to the French tanks specifically (no panic mounting of large guns in tanks that did not fit doctrine) an and that the Germans had better understanding of what they wanted the tanks to do. Not saying they did get them to do everything they wanted. The short 50mm would have at least given them equality with the 47mm SA 35 gun. Trying to up grade French tanks to the 47mm AT gun is possible (maybe?) but since this gun is very close to the German long 50mm in size, weight and power trying to stick in in existing 1 or possible two man turrets is going to be very difficult. Using the British trick with the 57mm of leaving one man out of a 3 man crew is not going to work.
Agreed.Germans chances of invading Russia in 1941 if the French hold out for even 6 months are pretty dismal.
But the Germans don't have pretty drawings or a few prototypes in May of
1940. They have multiple factories (small ones?) tooling to manufacture the guns and tanks to start deliveries in July/Aug.
The French have NOT solved the vision problems (more/better periscopes and cupolas) or the manufacture of radios or the tactics/doctrine.
My point is that the Germans were actually in the process of installing at least the short 50mm in the MK IIIs before they invaded France. Things may have gotten more urgent. The French plans were a number of months behind. The French had also shown a tendency to not be able to turn ideas and/or prototypes into service hardware (in use by actual army units) in a timely fashion for most of the 1930s. The French had actually been ahead of many other armies as far as some ideas go (the 75mm gun in the Char B was a start, not good one but a start) and did a lot of work with armor casting and thick armor and heavy tanks in general. The S 35 weighed, in 1935, about what the MK III did in the winter of 1939/40. It had much thicker armor. It also had a 190 hp engine. The cast turret was innovative, it was also complex to make. Germans were welding turrets together out of lots of small plates.Both countries, and British with them, will make every improvement to their tanks that is feasible to do during the Summer and Autumn of 1940 (plus during the Winter etc). Germans will try to up-gun and up-armor their stuff, while French will try to do the same, as well as to introduce the better turrets if possible. Yes, French will also try to modify their doctrine and tactics according to the lessons learned, and sometimes they will employ the 'throw it at the wall and see what sticks' principle.
S 35 was so expensive that the French ordered hundreds of H 35s to 'supplement' it. They French could have had plans, and ideas, and drawings and prototypes of guns, turrets, and even a few hulls. What they did not have in the summer of 1940 was needed plants/factories to turn any of the plans into needed numbers.
Germans in 1939 were planning on building well over 1000 MK IIIs. Now they only had about 98 for the attack on Poland but they were working on bringing in those other 6 factories besides DB in 1939, it just takes time. Time that France did not have. Trying to put a two man turret on the S35 with the 47mm SA 35 gun in the summer or fall/winter of 1940 is too little, too late.
The French had actually been ahead of many other armies as far as some ideas go (the 75mm gun in the Char B was a start, not good one but a start) and did a lot of work with armor casting and thick armor and heavy tanks in general.
Both countries, and British with them, will make every improvement to their tanks that is feasible to do during the Summer and Autumn of 1940 (plus during the Winter etc). Germans will try to up-gun and up-armor their stuff, while French will try to do the same, as well as to introduce the better turrets if possible.
Pretty much on point for the price calculation (it's approx 2 H39s for one S35), with the required number of personnel being 33% (but only radio operators), if you look at number of trained crew it is indeed double.I'd guess that two H35s will cost at least as much as one S35, while needing double the number of trained crew
440 of S35 produced before mid 1940 is still very good. Too bad that French didn't doubled-up on the S35, foregoing the H35 all together, for yet another 600+- of the S35s instead of 1200+- of H35s.
French tank production, in numbers and let alone in tonnage was better than what Germans were doing, pointing out that they in fact that they have had the plants/factories to make stuff. Unfortunately, best of the production capacity was used up for making the under 12 ton tanks crewed by two men each.
France didn't have had the time because they were defeated by Germany. As it can be seen, production of the serious tanks in Germany was also not roses and unicorns.
If the S35 can have a 2-men turret in the operative tanks in summer of 1940, that is a major boon for them. Having that in, say, October is indeed too late for 1940.
The 75mm gun on the Char B was a good start. An excellent start when compared to what the other people were installing in their tanks in the second half of the 1930s.