Tank armament effectiveness vs infantry
- Thread starter Zeus
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Thats not what I meant Renrich, ofcourse it's not going to fire off the main gun at a single man, but the coaxial MG will be used which was my point (Remember most tanks today only have coaxial MG's!), hence why I said he would expose himself to the HE shell from the maingun if he took cover (At close range you can avoid it, but at 400m you can't hope to out run it if you try!
Yes apparently you really do Juha, cause otherwise you wouldn't have doubted what I said for a second.
Handgrenades are very dangerous Juha and they have long safety ranges, within 10 - 15m the blast is enough to knock you out, while the shrapnel is deadly at even much longer distances. I've seen it live hundreds of times Juha, I know what I'm talking about here!
There's a reason these guys are standing behind a concrete wall Juha:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyBFNuHtVuw
When we practiced with live grenades it wasn't much different as we either threw them into concrete grenade pits or stood behind a natural or concrete protective wall like the guys above.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyBFNuHtVuw
When we practiced with live grenades it wasn't much different as we either threw them into concrete grenade pits or stood behind a natural or concrete protective wall like the guys above.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdXKjtqK-Y
How did your training with hand grenades differ Juha ? That's assuming you ever actually threw a live one.
With handgrades we tried to hit a foxhole while trhowing them from an ordinary trench. But as I said, having done that I don't need to watch them from YouTube
BTW celebrate You in Denmark Midsummer, here up north we do, Swedes also, even if typically more mild and civilizeid ways.
BTW celebrate You in Denmark Midsummer, here up north we do, Swedes also, even if typically more mild and civilizeid ways.
And from that you concluded that handgrenades weren't dangerous as long as they were 5 to 10 m away ??? Seriously Juha, if a handgrenade was ever to go off within 10 - 15m from you, I can pretty much guarantee that you will be dead, despite wearing body armour.
Have you ever actually seen the effect a handgrenade has one objects within 10 to 15 m of it when it goes off Juha ? Or did you just throw them into foxholes to then duck and hear the blast ?
Well I'm sorry Juha but it really doesn't come across like that.
Nope not the Danes, but I know the Swedes Finnish celebrate this period.
Soren
"And from that you concluded that handgrenades weren't dangerous as long as they were 5 to 10 m away ??? "
Read my posts. I have never doubt that handgranades were not dangerous if they detonate 5-10 m from you if you are not in cover.
"Have you ever actually seen the effect a handgrenade has one objects within 10 to 15 m of it when it goes off Juha "
Now in the Finnish Army, at least decades ago, we got some training to get used the blasts etc. And also were teached the effects of different kind of nasties by using targets. For handgranate, put some targets around a stump, put a handgranate on the stump, detonate it remotely and then go back to see the effects on the targets.
Thanks for the info on Midsummer, I thought that one must live there where there are significant variation of the length of the day between summer nad winter to have a strong tradition of Midsummer festivals or otherwise to be an Englishman.
On SC 50, I doubt that it was significantly lower order of detonation than normal because the nearby birches suffered badly from sharpnels and blast. detonation height appr 30cm over the ground, IIRC
Juha
"And from that you concluded that handgrenades weren't dangerous as long as they were 5 to 10 m away ??? "
Read my posts. I have never doubt that handgranades were not dangerous if they detonate 5-10 m from you if you are not in cover.
"Have you ever actually seen the effect a handgrenade has one objects within 10 to 15 m of it when it goes off Juha "
Now in the Finnish Army, at least decades ago, we got some training to get used the blasts etc. And also were teached the effects of different kind of nasties by using targets. For handgranate, put some targets around a stump, put a handgranate on the stump, detonate it remotely and then go back to see the effects on the targets.
Thanks for the info on Midsummer, I thought that one must live there where there are significant variation of the length of the day between summer nad winter to have a strong tradition of Midsummer festivals or otherwise to be an Englishman.
On SC 50, I doubt that it was significantly lower order of detonation than normal because the nearby birches suffered badly from sharpnels and blast. detonation height appr 30cm over the ground, IIRC
Juha
So you've seen the damage a handgrenade causes to people standing within 10 to 15m of it ? If so how the heck did you ever come to doubt that a cannon shell packed with 5 kg of explosives will make a complete mess of anyone within a 10m radius of it exploding ??
Having being in trench and in a log and earth bunker which firing aperture was almost towards the detonation while SC 50 and A/T mine were detonated and some 10-15 away from a detonating pipe mine in a VERY shallow depression laying flat. Now SC 50 had some 25 kg explosive, it was a quite a bang but nobody was hurt. Only dangerous situation was the pipe mine incident, we were inside 50% casualty zone without proper cover.
I have never claimed that standing man would survive unwounded within 10m from exploding 75mm shell.
I have never claimed that standing man would survive unwounded within 10m from exploding 75mm shell.
Hello guys,
Anyone who has been in the Army using hand grenades, knows that the average throwing distance of recruits is initially around 20m. Therefore throwing grenades without ducking and being behind a concrete wall or in a raised trench is absolutely forbidden (at least in the Bundeswehr and many other NATO armys), since the shrapnel distance of a DM51 hand grenade (6000 steel fragments) is up to 10m deadly in the open and highly injury prone up to 16m, DM56 training grenade or DM12/22 ground detonators are therefore used especially by national draftsmen.
Besides Members of the DSO and certain PzGrenadier units normal recruits of the Bundeswehr don't even get to exercise with "real" grenades. That the Finland army has different training procedures then the Bundeswehr is true, however no one would be alive at standing within 10 m of a DM51 grenade or equivalent defensive grenades. Therefore Juha, I am very convinced that you were using exercise or offensive grenades.
Even the depicted grenade in Soren's clip was not a shrapnel or defensive grenade. If for a DM51 the advertising board and most certainly the police officer would have been gone.
Training using EUHG51/85 with removed fragment mantel - offensive version
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrOXhEGVSfk
Regards
Kruska
Anyone who has been in the Army using hand grenades, knows that the average throwing distance of recruits is initially around 20m. Therefore throwing grenades without ducking and being behind a concrete wall or in a raised trench is absolutely forbidden (at least in the Bundeswehr and many other NATO armys), since the shrapnel distance of a DM51 hand grenade (6000 steel fragments) is up to 10m deadly in the open and highly injury prone up to 16m, DM56 training grenade or DM12/22 ground detonators are therefore used especially by national draftsmen.
Besides Members of the DSO and certain PzGrenadier units normal recruits of the Bundeswehr don't even get to exercise with "real" grenades. That the Finland army has different training procedures then the Bundeswehr is true, however no one would be alive at standing within 10 m of a DM51 grenade or equivalent defensive grenades. Therefore Juha, I am very convinced that you were using exercise or offensive grenades.
Even the depicted grenade in Soren's clip was not a shrapnel or defensive grenade. If for a DM51 the advertising board and most certainly the police officer would have been gone.
Training using EUHG51/85 with removed fragment mantel - offensive version
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrOXhEGVSfk
Regards
Kruska
parsifal
Colonel
Here is a link to a US ordinance site, which gives the details of US Handgrenade ordinance.
Hand Grenades
As a general rule, the standard M-67 frag grenade has an effective kill radius of 5 metres. It has an effective casualty radius of 15 metres but carries a warning that shrapnel pieces may travel up to 230 metres. In battle conditions, this safety warning is routinely ignored.
Artillery kill radii are dependant on the cover conditions of the target. However, it must be remembered that the "Kill" radius is a function of the amount of energy per square metre away from the blast, and that this is essentially a 1/d3 relationship. In other words, it takes a great deal more energy to create an effective kill zone that is even a little greater than a shell or bomb that is only a fraction of its size.
As for the effect of artillery against Infantry in buildings, well, history shows that this only tends to increase the protection for the Infantry. the Infantry simply take cover in the rubble, which provides a great deal better cover, and virtually an instant entrechment to hide in. This was proven a hundred times over in wwii, from Stalingrad to Caen
Hand Grenades
As a general rule, the standard M-67 frag grenade has an effective kill radius of 5 metres. It has an effective casualty radius of 15 metres but carries a warning that shrapnel pieces may travel up to 230 metres. In battle conditions, this safety warning is routinely ignored.
Artillery kill radii are dependant on the cover conditions of the target. However, it must be remembered that the "Kill" radius is a function of the amount of energy per square metre away from the blast, and that this is essentially a 1/d3 relationship. In other words, it takes a great deal more energy to create an effective kill zone that is even a little greater than a shell or bomb that is only a fraction of its size.
As for the effect of artillery against Infantry in buildings, well, history shows that this only tends to increase the protection for the Infantry. the Infantry simply take cover in the rubble, which provides a great deal better cover, and virtually an instant entrechment to hide in. This was proven a hundred times over in wwii, from Stalingrad to Caen
Kruska
as I wrote we throw the granates from a normal trench, dug in, And it was a live granate. We had thrown a training granate before that. The target was a normal foxhole, but its surraundings were cleaned from undergrowth and branches and there wasn't trees near it.
Juha
as I wrote we throw the granates from a normal trench, dug in, And it was a live granate. We had thrown a training granate before that. The target was a normal foxhole, but its surraundings were cleaned from undergrowth and branches and there wasn't trees near it.
Juha
Hello parsifal,
Not quite; initially if the building is hit, the probability of the persons inside the building being killed is almost sure. That survivors or reinforcements will use the rubble for cover (nothing else left) is understood.
Monte Casino provided excellent cover for the German paras after the bombing. If the paras would have been inside the monastery, not many would have survived the bombardment. As for Stalingrad it was in fact the missing artillery firepower that made it so costly for the Wehrmacht. The assault artillery such as Brumbaer and Sturmtiger were actually developed in reference to Stalingrad to take out infantry in buildings.
Regards
Kruska
Not quite; initially if the building is hit, the probability of the persons inside the building being killed is almost sure. That survivors or reinforcements will use the rubble for cover (nothing else left) is understood.
Monte Casino provided excellent cover for the German paras after the bombing. If the paras would have been inside the monastery, not many would have survived the bombardment. As for Stalingrad it was in fact the missing artillery firepower that made it so costly for the Wehrmacht. The assault artillery such as Brumbaer and Sturmtiger were actually developed in reference to Stalingrad to take out infantry in buildings.
Regards
Kruska
Exactly Kruska, that Juha was throwing training grenades was my first thought as-well as that is usually all a draftee gets to try.
Juha, if you knew how dangerous a real handgrenade is then you wouldn't have doubted what I said for second. We're talking a cannon shell packing 5 kg of explosives, thats tens of thousands of deadly pieces of shrapnel and a blast large enough to knock you cold if you're within 15 - 20m of it detonating.
As for the pipe mine you were talking about, how large ? What kind of cover exactly ? The usual pipe mine contains anywhere from 150 - 200 g of explosives and has a lethal range of about 10 - 15m, but it is dangerous way past 50m.
Juha, if you knew how dangerous a real handgrenade is then you wouldn't have doubted what I said for second. We're talking a cannon shell packing 5 kg of explosives, thats tens of thousands of deadly pieces of shrapnel and a blast large enough to knock you cold if you're within 15 - 20m of it detonating.
As for the pipe mine you were talking about, how large ? What kind of cover exactly ? The usual pipe mine contains anywhere from 150 - 200 g of explosives and has a lethal range of about 10 - 15m, but it is dangerous way past 50m.
I take it you have never thrown a grenade in your life ?
That's complete bollocks Parsifal. Ordinary buildings are about the worst place to seek cover against artillery. If artillery strikes a building with people in it, those people are almost surely going to die.
Now AFTER the building has been turned to rubble, it will provide good cover for infantry, but not while it is still standing.
Soren
as I have wrote, if you are in a trench, behind a big boulder or otherwise well protected, a 75mm shell, at least WWII type, detonating 10-15 away from you didn't kill you. That's why armies bother to dig in.
Pipe Mine 68, 240 gr TNT, cannot remember exactly danger zones. Now when I have thought it ower, maybe we were not inside 50% but inside 25% casualty zone. But still well within the sharpnel range, one small, 68 produced almost entirely only tiny sharpnels, hit my helmet. The reason of the incident was that the regular broke all the safety rules.
as I have wrote, if you are in a trench, behind a big boulder or otherwise well protected, a 75mm shell, at least WWII type, detonating 10-15 away from you didn't kill you. That's why armies bother to dig in.
Pipe Mine 68, 240 gr TNT, cannot remember exactly danger zones. Now when I have thought it ower, maybe we were not inside 50% but inside 25% casualty zone. But still well within the sharpnel range, one small, 68 produced almost entirely only tiny sharpnels, hit my helmet. The reason of the incident was that the regular broke all the safety rules.
