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Bollocks. You can't prove that ridiculous claim of yours at all.
I trust the experts on this subject, one of which you are not.
I have provided the facts, you have but provided opinions claims, claiming the US used IR equipment before the Germans, which has been proven they did not.
Anymore claims you'd like to come up with ?
You know I can provide the names of all the books by the authors I listed which I used as reference.
Hello
Usually technological development is rather complicated, ideas pop up in different countries. With reasonable education system and some industrial base countries could design and develop world class products if they put resources on that sector. Nothing new or surprising in this.
If we look Type XXI and XXIII submarines they were not in fact so revolutionary as some thinks.
In fact the idea of submarines optimized for underwater operations was not new. First to see combat were British R-Class hunter-killer submarines near very end of WWI, they had under water speed of 14knts, single screw, sensitive hydrophones in the bulbous bow as well as 6 bow torpedo tubes. So in theory very modern concept but too much ahead its time and difficult to control while submerged because of their high speed. Next which I can recall was in late 30s IJN Vessel Number 71 (submerged speed 21 knts) and very late in the WWII Japanese also built I-200 Class submarines which had underwaterspeed of 19knts.
Juha
The Type XXI didn't suffer any serious faults, the thing that delayed their entrance into full service was the obligatory crew training period which could take several months.
Nuclear Depth Charges would soon settle thatJuha it wasn't the Type XXI's underwater speed which made it revolutionary, it was all the new technology packed into it, including the hull design and at the time highly advanced creep engine. The hydraulic reloading system, new sonar, accoustic listening devices, highly advanced weapons (The torps were the most advanced best in the world) And because of its' carefully designed shape the Type XXI was virtually undetectable by any Allied sonar radar equipment of the war. The battery lifetime was also taken to a whole new level, and the air cleaning filter system was state of the art.
Nothing came close to the Type XXI sub, it was by far the best most revolutionary submarine of the war. And luckily for the Allies it didn't get into service in early 44, something which could've spelled disaster for the Allies.
It is sad when someone knows they are wrong but stupidly carries on in the hope they can bluff their way out of the corner they painted themselves into.
You live in a dream world. There are a number of books on the subject that list theses serious faults. Hitler was told they would be in service in early 1944 when in fact they never appeared untill a 15 months later.
Why so?
15 months (min) is normal for 'crew training'?
You are confusing potential with practicality-a trap most of the '1946 Uber-Weapon' believers fall into. They believe a weapon system falls fully proven and succesful straight from the drawing board and into action with 2 weeks of the blueprints being passed. Reality never dents the enthusiam of the true believer.
I don't disagree with you when you say that the T34 and KV1 were a wake up call for Germany its a point I have made myself, but the PzIII 50mm L60 was a good match for the T34 but the problem was that only a handful were built in 1941. The problem was that Germany lacked the production facilities to equip the 1,650ish 50mm L42 tanks built in 1941 with the L60 gun.The invasion of Russia was a wake-up call to Germany. The T-34 and KV series totally outclassed every German tank in service. They also found that their standard A/T weapon (37mm) was obsolete. Overnight they found that they were not the top tank designers and a crash program was institiuted to reverse this disadvantage. The Panther and Tiger helped but the Soviets played their usual game and brought in the IS series. This was roughly comparably to a Tiger but at a much lower cost. Everyone waffles on about 1946 German Uber-Panzers that MIGHT have got into service but completely overlook the IS-3 (which was in production and not an airy fairey soon to be finished prototype).
Of all the WW2 combatants nobody got more bang for their buck than the Russians. Not for them over-engineered tanks with a predicted track life of 5 years (useful when your tank has a combat life of 6 months) but simple cheap and deadly designs that could swamp the 6 or seven Tiger II's spread over a 100 mile front!
There were some build quality issues with the first one but training was the biggest drawback. To say they were not advanced because they didn't prove themselves is a bit shortsighted. The facts speak for themselves. It wasn't just the speed and depth it was the technology they were equipped with, that made the difference. They were a complete package. Japan had vessels that could match the speed and the USA in a number of areas matched the technology, but Germany put the two together.Re Type XXI and Type XXIII, Well we can becuase they never actualy proved themselves. They were supposed to be in service from early 1944 but they were full of faults that stopped their safe use. Devotees ovelook this awkward fact.
They had other bigger shortcomings. Their intellegence service was comprehensively penetrated and their most secret code was being read right from the beggining. I can't understand how a nation that STARTS a war against the 3 biggest powers on the planet expected to win the war. It was the most idiotic course of action and nothing but suicide. You can't praise their small scale success whilst ignoring these stupid strategic decisions.
As Soren will find out (if he bothers to check) there were no IR equiped Panthers operating ANYWHERE in the West for 1944. There were Panthers that had the attachments for the IR equipment but that is not the same thing.
Hello Soren
I didn't say that XXI wasn't important. Was it "was by far the best most revolutionary submarine of the war."? Answer is in USN evaluation reports on XXI and I-200 Class, I haven't seen them.
Underwater speed was important, because speeds over 16knts meant that enemy needed new type escort vessels and sonars.
I agree with highly advanced creep engine. Highly advanced weapons, yes, but how effective they would have been. Germans had had too high expectations on their earlier new torpedoes, effects of acoustic torpedoes and FAT had been much less than Germans had expected.
And as I wrote even R-Class had advances hydrophone system which allowed tracking of U-boats while totally submerged.
And on hull shape, the single screw stemlined spindle-shaped hull of circular section with bulbous bow of R-Class is the modern hull type not that of that of XXI
Juha
Guess we need a definition on this one Kenny. Clarification. What is the difference between IR equipment and IR attachments? Need to know before I go looking for the book that I read it in.
I hate doing this, but one area that the germans did excel, was in Tank design. Nobody could approach them when it came to innovation in that field.
The Panther forces are estimated to have ddestroyed about 3.5 enemy tanks for each tank lost, whilst the Tigers accounted for about 5.5 tanks for each tank lost.
As far as IR equipped Panthers are concerned, I did find this link.
On the basis of the Link alone (which I dont know is true or not, but the lack of evidence by either of you guys for such entrenched and acrimonious positions is breathtaking)
I found that there is evidence of IR equipped tanks, but equally these articles also say that there was a conspicous lack of success with the equipment. It appears to very much be the case that the fitments were highly experimental, and incomplete in terms of their development. Cant prove that, but that appears to be the case.
Metal brackets to hold the IR Equipment. Not the IR sights/lights themselves
Re Sorens List of items. Whilst I would argue that some of the items on it don't deserve to be there, there can be little doubt that in a number of areas the Germans were ahead of the rest of the world.
Aerodynamics leading to the Me262, He162, Arado 234 is one obvious area.
In some cases aircraft design not forgetting the Fw190 which was a quantum leap in performance when it was introduced into service.
Tank Design, the Pz III, PzIV, Tigers and Panthers were all ahead of the rest of the field in their day and were the tanks everyone measured their own tanks against.
In Submarines no one would doubt that the Type XXI and Type XXIII were a generation ahead.
In small arms the Germans had some advanced ideas.
There are other examples in the list but equally there is no doubt that the vast majority of the examples, it was a case of too little too late.
That doesn't detract from the design teams. The one area where Germany fell behind was the war of Logistics. I mentioned on an earlier thread flipantly that they relied on the horse which sums up their weakness.
Can anyone imagine what would have happened if the German designs had been matched with the economic power of the USA?
As I said at the start I would question some of the items on Sorens list but that isn't the point, generally speaking in a number of key areas, the Germans were ahead.
Ah but that can only be refering to yourself, cause I have brought forth only facts supported by well respected sources, facts you have been unable to disprove.
Guys
If you want to keep this discussion thread open, then I suggest you all take a step back and cool it just a little
There is no need to get abusive with each other just because that person has a different point of view