Technology and Science from 1901 to 1945

Juha · Dec 5, 2008

Hello Glider
did some checking, Commander Compton-Hall, then Director of the Submarine Museum at Gosport and ret submarine skipper in his The Underwater War 1939-1945 (1982) p. 153 on Type XXI "This excellent submarine did not emerge in time to affect the course of the war and it is now known that its sonar and weapon system would not have enabled fully submerged attacks to have been carried out as effectively as hoped."
And Blair's opinion on XXI is harsher than I remembered. In Hitler's U-Uboat War The Hunters, 1939 -1942 (1996) pp. x-xi "In the classified report they [American evaluators on U-2513, a XXI] sent to the Chief of Naval Operations, dated July 1946, they wrote that while the Type XXI had many desirable features that should be exploited (big battery, snorkel, streamlining etc), it also had many grave design and manufacturing faults. The clear implication was that owning to these faults, the XXI could not have made a big difference in the Battle of Atlantic." The list of faults can also be find in the second volume, The Hunted, 1942 – 1945 (2000) pp. 709-710.

On Meteor
one bad problem in Meteor was its poor ailerons.

Juha

Soren · Dec 5, 2008

Holy moly this thread has advanced since I was here last!

Soren · Dec 5, 2008

Some things you guys should know about M_kenny is that he is a hardcore Allied tank fan and will therefore disagree with the fact that German tanks were far superior to Allied tanks. I know him from the Axishistory forum.

And, btw, posting book covers doesn't prove squat and m_kenny should know that. Fact of the matter is he can't disprove that Panthers were equipped with IR equipment and used it in combat. So what does he do ? He chooses the easy route and denies it ever happened.

Soren · Dec 5, 2008

Some facts:
Nightfighting Panthers

m kenny · Dec 5, 2008

Soren said:
Some facts:
Nightfighting Panthers

Oh dear. The site linked above says this :

In summer 1944 the Panthers of 3.Kompanie, 24th Panzerregiment, 116th Panzerdivision, were equipped with UHU on the battle/excercise-area BERGEN, and actually trained the use of the nightfighting concept SPERBER. Hitler planned the mission of this Kompanie to be during the Operation WACHT AM RHEIN (Battle of the Bulge) and actually some squads were tranfered to the western front, but never saw action there.

It seems the source serves only to confirm that there was no use of IR Panthers!

m kenny · Dec 5, 2008

Soren said:
posting book covers doesn't prove squat

But it does prove I have the books and have read them (thats why I stacked them in 1'S 2's and 4's, I knew you would try this) There is no mention of IR Panther usuage in the West during 1944.

Fact of the matter is he can't disprove that Panthers were equipped with IR equipment and used it in combat.

I think it is highly significant that though you have spent 2 days trying to find a reply this is the best you could come up with!

So what does he do ? He chooses the easy route and denies it ever happened.

And Soren, who says he has facts and references in spades, failed to find one single author or book to back his fan-boy claim about IR Panthers.

Try here for a 8 year old demolition of the destruction of the Comets myth.

Axis WWII Discussion Group: Exploding Comets, and myths.

Extracts:

The Royal Armoured Corps official vehicle returns (June 1945) report the RAC lost a total of 26 Comets during WWII. By examining the published histories of the 7th and 11th Armoured Divisions, the 4th and 29th Armoured Brigades, and finally all the various Comet regiments you can find every vehicle accounted for.
Having read through that lot, the loss of 4 Comets in a single night action (or any other tank at this stage of the war) would have been worth a book on its own. The highest single loss of Comets at any point (in 1945) occurred (in April) to the 23rd Hussars when 2 Comets where hit in the engine compartment by A/T gunfire, around morning teatime.

Obviously I was prepared for the 'maybe they weren't Comets' argument, I have spent considerable time in the Bovington library examining the war diaries of:
7AD, 11AD, Grds AD, 8AB, 29AB, 33AB, 34TB, 8 Corps, 12 Corps, 30Corps and the 21st Army group as well as the Canadian, Czech and Polish AD's.
And nobody lost 4 tanks in a night encounter with German AFV's in April 1945 at a time when all losses are recorded. Its that simple.

I look through the photocopied pages of R.Stoves "History of the 22.,25.,27.,and 233.Res Pz Divs." (Thank you Herr.Block!) In the chapter covering Pz.Div Clausewitz, (which is largely based on Gen. Martin Unrein's study on the Div. "Einsatz der Pz. Div Clausewitz 11 Apr. bis 21 Apr '45"), makes no mention of this 'fictional'engagement (BTW. Gen.Unrein was the Kdr. of the Div.) The part of the Div that 'would' have had those supposed IR Panthers, was a K.Gr. of Gen.Decker who on the night of Apr 20/21 '45 was retreating along the Weser/Elbe canal in the direction of Fallersleben hoping to capture a bridge to cross, in order to facilitate their retreat. The group caught an American supply column out in the open, and ambushed and destroyed it. Later, the same night the group was suprised by a few US anti-tank guns, and the group loss a few AFVs. 2 Panthers assisted in destroying these US 'Pak'. By, Apr 22 '45, the K.Gr. was wiped out. (I don't know if I read it write, as my German is terrible, but I don't see any IR or Comets or Brits in this account!)

The commanding officer of KG UHU, during integration in June 1945, said an order existed from Guderian that I/R was not to be deployed in the west. The officer did not know the reason for this but one reason put by the evaluation team is the likelihood the Germans knew about the British possessing I/R (which of course they did). Professor R V Jones confirms this in his 'Most Secret War' book.

The IR Panther myth is always trotted out by the Uber-panzer followers but it is always the same, vague unsourced claims. The story about the Comets is easily exposed as a fabrication but that does not seem to deter the true believers

parsifal · Dec 5, 2008

M-kenny

Ive got Jones' book. Its been many years since ive read it, so I would ask that you give the page reference for this talk about IR equipment of its tank forces. He has a whole chapter on British IR development, and other references to it all through his book, but this concentrates on airborne and seaborne IR (or lack of it, since it wasa deception that caused the Germans to expend huge amounts of time and money trying to develop IR resistant paints for their U-Boats). I am not doubting the contents and claims made, I just want to see for myself

m kenny · Dec 5, 2008

My copy of 'Most Secret War' is not to hand right now and I will be away most of tomorrow but I will check it myself (the above is from the ML site rather than my words) so you may find it before me!
I hope you all realise the significance of Soren's claim. He says that IR Panthers enjoyed considerable success in the West and I can assure you this is big news indeed. There are no documents confirming this explosive new revalation and no other author has had sight of the sources Soren used to make the claim. How did he find what everyone else missed? I can understand his reluctance to share his sources- he probably thinks Jentz will steal his information and claim it for his own!

parsifal · Dec 5, 2008

Soren M-Kenny

If you guys cannot refrain from the personal attacks that lace all of your posts, you are going to get this thread closed. I'll say it again, please back off and cool off for a bit.

You both have considerable knowledge on this topic, but neither of you do any credibility to your reputations or to the reputation of this forum by engaging in this purile behaviour

If you dont stop this now this thread is going to be closed, nothing surer, and that means that all the rest of us are going to suffer because you two idiots cant control your tempers

If I see one more personal outburst from wither of you, I am going to PM one of the Mods and ask that you be restrained from further comment on this thread. I doubt that they will agree to that (the standard here is that the thread gets closed), but I am going to try nevertheless, for the sake of the other contributors of this thread

Thankyou

Glider · Dec 5, 2008

Juha said:
Hello Glider
did some checking, Commander Compton-Hall, then Director of the Submarine Museum at Gosport and ret submarine skipper in his The Underwater War 1939-1945 (1982) p. 153 on Type XXI "This excellent submarine did not emerge in time to affect the course of the war and it is now known that its sonar and weapon system would not have enabled fully submerged attacks to have been carried out as effectively as hoped."
And Blair's opinion on XXI is harsher than I remembered. In Hitler's U-Uboat War The Hunters, 1939 -1942 (1996) pp. x-xi "In the classified report they [American evaluators on U-2513, a XXI] sent to the Chief of Naval Operations, dated July 1946, they wrote that while the Type XXI had many desirable features that should be exploited (big battery, snorkel, streamlining etc), it also had many grave design and manufacturing faults. The clear implication was that owning to these faults, the XXI could not have made a big difference in the Battle of Atlantic." The list of faults can also be find in the second volume, The Hunted, 1942 – 1945 (2000) pp. 709-710.

On Meteor
one bad problem in Meteor was its poor ailerons.

Juha

Thanks for the info. I don't have that book but Christmas is on the way!!!

Re the manufacturing problems I do know that the early boats had a problem in this area (hardly unexpected considering the situation at the time) but thought that these had been resolved. Design issues I don't know about but will do what I can to look into that area.

Thanks again

TempestMKV · Dec 6, 2008

Glider said:
Hi Tempest
Are you seriously saying that the Me262, to take a good example wasn't far more advanced than anything the British or Americans had?

It wasn't Media that designed and built the Me262.

Me262 was NOT far more advanced than anything the British or Americans had in WWII.

Me262 had NO swept wing because its wing shape is for gravity balance.

Vampire and F80 is as good as Me262 in WWII, and they wound be rubbish in korean War because 5 years had passed since WWII.

The comparation report of P80 vs Me262 after WWII is an unilateral analysis. P80 had its own advantage over Me262.

Adolf Galand said " UK jet engine+ german aerodynamics=best jet fighter " after he flew meteor in Agentina.

TempestMKV · Dec 6, 2008

Glider said:
Again I agree with you. The engines were similar but its the lack of a swept wing that made the Meteor a dog in Korea when coompared with the F86 and Mig 15.

Me262 is also a rubbish in Korea when coompared with the F86 and Mig 15.

Check the data,plz.

TempestMKV · Dec 6, 2008

Burmese Bandit said:
Dang, I posted a long reply to Tempest...and I lost the connection and had to log in again, and so lost my post...

Just to say, briefly, that if you look at the financial history of the Nazi Party, especially in the period 1930 to 1933, you will see that it was all done with GERMAN capital - over 95%.

'nuff said!

CHAPTER SEVEN: Who Financed Adolf Hitler?

We know exactly who contributed, how much, and through what channels. It is notable that the largest contributors — I.G. Farben, German General Electric (and its affiliated company Osram), and Thyssen — were affiliated with Wall Street financiers. These Wall Street financiers were at the heart of the financial elite and they were prominent in contemporary American politics. Gerard Swope of General Electric was author of Roosevelt's New Deal, Teagle was one of NRA's top administrators, Paul Warburg and his associates at American I.G. Farben were Roosevelt advisors. It is perhaps not an extraordinary coincidence that Roosevelt's New Deal — called a "fascist measure" by Herbert Hoover — should have so closely resembled Hitler's program for Germany, and that both Hitler and Roosevelt took power in the same month of the same year — March 1933

Marcel · Dec 6, 2008

TempestMKV said:
Me262 had NO swept wing because its wing shape is for gravity balance.

No swept wing eh

And wing shape for gravity balance? You are using wiki as source, don't you. But then you should quote all of it, not just the part that suits you:

The USAAF compared the P-80 Shooting Star and Me 262 concluding, "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (907 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter."[30]

from the same wikipeadia article. So the Americans considered the Me262 superior to the P-80 according to wiki.

parsifal · Dec 6, 2008

TempestMKV said:
CHAPTER SEVEN: Who Financed Adolf Hitler?

We know exactly who contributed, how much, and through what channels. It is notable that the largest contributors — I.G. Farben, German General Electric (and its affiliated company Osram), and Thyssen — were affiliated with Wall Street financiers. These Wall Street financiers were at the heart of the financial elite and they were prominent in contemporary American politics. Gerard Swope of General Electric was author of Roosevelt's New Deal, Teagle was one of NRA's top administrators, Paul Warburg and his associates at American I.G. Farben were Roosevelt advisors. It is perhaps not an extraordinary coincidence that Roosevelt's New Deal — called a "fascist measure" by Herbert Hoover — should have so closely resembled Hitler's program for Germany, and that both Hitler and Roosevelt took power in the same month of the same year — March 1933

I read the article you attached, and it merely confirms that the multi-national companies that existed at the time made contributiuons to Hitlers campaigns leading up to his elections. big deal, that is standard practice for multi-nationals wishing to do business with the new regime.

Its also true that many European firms like Renault and puegot collaborated with the Germans, and that the Ford Motor Company in Germany produced large amounts of trucks for the regime. None of this points to a collaboration as such. They were companies within the territorial limits of the regime. They had no real choice other than to work for their new masters.

Multi-nationals and industry generally does not, as yet, formulate policy. They provide the means, but decisions on how that means is used, was the perogative of the regime itself

TempestMKV · Dec 6, 2008

Marcel said:
No swept wing eh

And wing shape for gravity balance? You are using wiki as source, don't you. But then you should quote all of it, not just the part that suits you:
from the same wikipeadia article. So the Americans considered the Me262 superior to the P-80 according to wiki.

Although DC-3 wing has a swept angle, it is NOT swept desgin.

Although Me262 wing has a swept angle, it's NOT swept design.

With regard to F80 v Me262, F80 can outturn and outroll Me262, F80's engine's reliability is better than Me262's.

Climb rate and level accelaration are roughly equal.

Me262's Dive/speed advantage is not obvious.

F80's engine could be ungraded to higher performance than Me262's because of excellent UK engine tech such as Nene in 1946.

So I prefer F80 to Me262 without hesitate.

TempestMKV · Dec 6, 2008

parsifal said:
I read the article you attached, and it merely confirms that the multi-national companies that existed at the time made contributiuons to Hitlers campaigns leading up to his elections. big deal, that is standard practice for multi-nationals wishing to do business with the new regime.

Its also true that many European firms like Renault and puegot collaborated with the Germans, and that the Ford Motor Company in Germany produced large amounts of trucks for the regime. None of this points to a collaboration as such. They were companies within the territorial limits of the regime. They had no real choice other than to work for their new masters.

Multi-nationals and industry generally does not, as yet, formulate policy. They provide the means, but decisions on how that means is used, was the perogative of the regime itself

What a excuse !

CHAPTER ELEVEN: Wall Street-Nazi Collaboration in World War II

Top American industrialists and financiers named in this book are covered by the categories listed above. Henry Ford and Edsel Ford respectively contributed money to Hitler and profited from German wartime production. Standard Oil of New Jersey, General Electric, General Motors, and I.T.T. certainly made financial or technical contributions which comprise prima facie evidence of "participating in planning or carrying out Nazi enterprises."

There is, in brief, evidence which suggests:

(a) cooperation with the Wehrmacht (Ford Motor Company, Chase Bank, Morgan Bank);

(b) aid to the Nazi Four Year Plan and economic mobilization for war (Standard Oil of New Jersey);

(c) creating and equipping the Nazi war machine (I.T.T.);

(d) stockpiling critical materials for the Nazis (Ethyl Corporation);

(e) weakening the Nazis' potential enemies (American I.G. Farben);

and,

(f) carrying on of propaganda, intelligence, and espionage (American I.G. Farben and Rockefeller public-relations man Ivy Lee).

At the very least there is sufficient evidence to demand a thorough and impartial investigation. However, as we have noted previously, these same firms and financiers were prominent in the 1933 election of Roosevelt and consequently had sufficient political pull to squelch threats of investigation. Extracts from the Morgenthau diary demonstrate that Wall Street political power was sufficient even to control the appointment of officers responsible for the denazification and eventual government of post-war Germany.

Did these American firms know of their assistance to Hitler's military machine? According to the firms themselves, emphatically not. They claim innocence of any intent to aid Hitler's Germany. Witness a telegram sent by the chairman of the board of Standard Oil of New Jersey to Secretary of War Patterson after World War II, when preliminary investigation of Wall Street assistance was under way:

During the entire period of our business contacts, we had no inkling of Farben's conniving part in Hitler's brutal politics, We offer any help we can give to see that complete truth is brought to light, and that rigid justice is done.

F.W. Abrams,
Chairman of Board

Unfortunately, the evidence presented is contrary to Abrams' telegraphed assertions. Standard Oil of New Jersey not only aided Hitler's war machine, but had knowledge of this assistance. Emil Helfferich, the board chairman of a Standard of New Jersey subsidiary, was a member of the Keppler Circle before Hitler came to power; he continued to give financial contributions to Himmler's Circle as late as 1944.

Accordingly, it is not at all difficult to visualize why Nazi industrialists were puzzled by "investigation" and assumed at the end of the war that their Wall Street friends would bail them out and protect them from the wrath of those who had suffered. These attitudes were presented to the Kilgore Committee in 1946:

You might also be interested in knowing, Mr. Chairman, that the top I.G. Farben people and others, when we questioned them about these activities, were inclined at times to be very in. dignant. Their general attitude and expectation was that the war was over and we ought now to be assisting them in helping to get I.G. Farben and German industry back on its feet. Some of them have outwardly said that this questioning and investigation was, in their estimation, only a phenomenon of short duration, because as soon as things got a little settled they would expect their friends in the United States and in England to be coming over. Their friends, so they said, would put a stop to activities such as these investigations and would see that they got the treatment which they regarded as proper and that assistance would be given to them to help reestablish their industry.

Kurfürst · Dec 6, 2008

Juha said:
And Blair's opinion on XXI is harsher than I remembered.

I think Blair and his opinion on the Type XXI has been discussed on these boards already, and rather throughly debunked too.

TempestMKV said:
Me262 had NO swept wing because its wing shape is for gravity balance.

Of course it had swept wings and all the advantages stemming from that fact during high speed flight.

Wheater the reason for that was gravity balance or aerodynamic considerations is immaterial to the fact. Note though, that the advantages swept wings at high speed were well known to the Germans and Messerschmitt, so suggesting it was only a matter of 'lucky coincidence' is very reaching.

PS: Overall, I'd venture saying that this thread is extremely silly.

Marcel · Dec 6, 2008

TempestMKV said:
Although DC-3 wing has a swept angle, it is NOT swept desgin.

good one, didn't see that coming.

Kurfürst said:
Wheater the reason for that was gravity balance or aerodynamic considerations is immaterial to the fact. Note though, that the advantages swept wings at high speed were well known to the Germans and Messerschmitt, so suggesting it was only a matter of 'lucky coincidence' is very reaching.

Yes, it is no coincedence that the Me163 had them as well.

Kurfürst said:
PS: Overall, I'd venture saying that this thread is extremely silly.

Agreed

Burmese Bandit · Dec 6, 2008

Judging by the tone of Tempest MK V's posts, I think it would be better if we just split off the "who was behind hitler" parts of this thread, and set them up in a separate thread in the Politics section!

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