The 109

[bob44]

Aside from the fuel and pilot shortage. I think the most significant issue with the 109 vs 51 was speed. Now, how can Germany make the 109 as fast as the 51 was? If possible? Major redesign, or better to come up with an all new aircraft?

 

[ShVAK]

Aside from the fuel and pilot shortage. I think the most significant issue with the 109 vs 51 was speed. Now, how can Germany make the 109 as fast as the 51 was? If possible? Major redesign, or better to come up with an all new aircraft?

K-4 had Mustang speed and better firepower, but it came at the expense of everything else.

The 109 was tapped out. It gave Germany a competitive fighter for seven years up against a constantly moving target. It was time for better designs, and by '43 the Me 262 and Fw 190 were available.

 

[davebender]

Original Me-109 design specifications required a max level speed of 250 mph. 1941 Me-109F pushed the aircraft to 400 mph. If you want a higher max speed then you should probably put the Me-309 into production as that airframe was designed for higher speeds.

 

[GrauGeist]

It pains me to say it, but, scrap it and pour everything into the 262.

The 262 wasn't a dogfighter, but certainly a valuable interceptor/heavy fighter

Had the RLM realized the importance and value of what Heinkel and Messerscmitt were developing, and provided money and urgency into the jet engine program in the late 30's, then they would have had the He280 AND the Me262 available well before midwar...

The He280 WAS a dogfighter and didn't require critical aviation fuel...

 

[msxyz]

The 262 wasn't a dogfighter, but certainly a valuable interceptor/heavy fighter

Had the RLM realized the importance and value of what Heinkel and Messerscmitt were developing, and provided money and urgency into the jet engine program in the late 30's, then they would have had the He280 AND the Me262 available well before midwar...

The He280 WAS a dogfighter and didn't require critical aviation fuel...

neither did the Me 262. Both the He006 and the Jumo 004 used diesel fuel. I seem to remember that the bmw 003, oddly, ran on gasoline. An interesting and less debated "what if" scenario is the RLM NOT ordering Heinkel to scrap their first generation designs to concentrate on the He012.

Heinkel jet engines were lighter and gave better fuel economy and could reach operational status one year before.

 

[stona]

The life,reliability and serviceability of German jet engines were badly effected by material shortages too. The scientists came up with some clever alloys to attempt to overcome this,but only with limited success.
If relatively limited production was so hampered how could they have produced really large numbers?

Another problem is this assumption that the fuels were readily available for such aircraft. Whilst it is true that there were significant amounts of diesel type fuels available at the end of the war the Germans were simply unable to get it to where it was needed.
You still need regular aviation fuels to train your jet pilots. They are not going to start out on high performance jet fighters!

The overriding problem,mentioned already,always remains. There was noone to competently and effectively fly whatever aircraft were produced.

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

In the early years, leading up to and during the beginning of the war, the Luftwaffe had a comprehensive pilot training system which would have been producing competant jet pilots, no doubt.

As I mentioned, had the RLM devoted the much needed funding AND made the development of the jet engine program a priority, then there shouldn't have been the problems that the engines suffered in reality.

Ernest Heinkel took the He280 to the RLM twice, the last time actually taking a 280 in full war dress and demonstrating it's ability to out-fly a Fw190 in 1941, before the Me262 prototype's first flight.

And for the record, the He280 was fuelled by Kerosene...

 

[stona]

And for the record, the He280 was fuelled by Kerosene...

All jet engines ran on what,as an ex-chemist,I would describe as "medium weight hydrocarbon fuels". This is why I said "diesel type" fuels.
Kerosene and Diesel are not chemical definitions one is a registered trade mark and the other someone's name. Kerosene (Paraffin this side of the pond) is a diesel type fuel or vice versa. Paraffins (a group of chemicals properly called alkanes) are the primary component of both Kerosene and diesel fuels.

You can't make jet engines without complex alloys. The metals required for these were either unavailable or being used in other programs,notably in U-boat construction. This had a deliterious effect on the jet engines that were produced and militates against a large production program without at the very least some realignment of production priorities.

The pre/early war Luftwaffe pilot training program did indeed produce high quality personel. The problem,crudely,is that by the time any jet fighter was going to enter service most of them were dead.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Juha]

The points against He 280 in late 41- early 43 timeframe from operational PoV.
-Very short range
-IMHO totally unsuited to operate of all places from most fighter fields in SU and Africa with its "vacuum cleaners"
- Most of Jagdfliegern were fighting very far from Germany proper at the end of difficult supply routes, not a good time for introducting totally new technology which used a different kind of fuel.

And in 41-42 109s still did extremely well and 190 was coming into service. In 41-42 Germany was mostly bombed by night, so a plane like He 280 seemed to be rather superflous for requirements.

 

[Civettone]

Simply incorporate all the changes: the Erla canopy, larger supercharger from DB 603A, aileron Flettner tabs, the aerodynamic improvements which were proposed since the early G-series like a more streamlined cowling, fully retractable tailwheel and wheel well covers. All these things were readily available by mid-late 1943 the latest but were not put into production and standardized fast enough. Even without MW boost (that can be added at a later time) it will result in a very capable fighter - but still doesn't solve the main problem of lack of enough fighter pilots and fuel. IMHO the decision to put all efforts into the fighters should have been made much earlier, at the expense of level bombers, which consumed extremely high amounts of fuel.

I have nothing much to add to this. The streamlined hood, the retractable tail wheel and the main wheel door covers were availble in 1943. By the end of that year they could and should have been standard. They would have added around 25 kmh to the maximum speed.
The BIGGEST problem the Germans had was a lack of properly trained pilots. This cannot be stressed enough!! Allied fighter pilots did practice shooting on LW recruits with a mere 150 hours of flight training, later decling even further.
The lack of aviation gasoline only came around mid 1944 when it was already too late. (Up to April 1944 the German hydrogenation plants produced a surplus!) Even with unlimited amounts of avgas the LW would not have been able to do more: you need good pilots. And as it would take a year to train them in the proper way, you would need to do that in 1943 at the latest!
So I disagree that the use of fuel-guzzling level bombers was a problem.

And finally, a lot has been said about the Bf 109K being nothing more than a racer. I think these are unfounded. The Bf 109G/K was a very agile plane capable of taking on any enemy fighter, provided there was a decently trained pilot in the cockpit. A lot of misinformation seems to come from old publications and spread by atrocious flight sims.
Kris

 

[Civettone]

That's a single problem. 1942 and later Germany could not provide replacement pilots with enough flight hours due to a shortage of aviation gasoline.

This is simply not true! The reason is that the nazi leadership ordered fighter production increase without increasing training facilities. Hitler ordered fighter production doubled. Or Panther tanks, or battleships, or pink bicycles, ... The result of such a dictator system is that the followers will follow up on that order without thinking it through. This makes sense. In the end the boss only looks at the figures. That is also why Germany had such a low serviceability rate: the production of spare parts was decreased for more end products, ludicrous! And as for pilot training the reasoning went like "we need twice as many pilots, so lets half their training time". Same thing for trainer aircraft and instructors: whenever an emergency arrived they were sent to the front, without ever returning to the training units.

Kris

 

[drgondog]

There was nothing 'wrong' per se about the Me 109 that did not occur as the airframe increased weight and horsepower to support the evolution. Some of the obvious issues that hurt the 109 also impacted the Mustang. Both airframes were designed (Eppenage, structural capbility, longudinal stability) based on ~ 1000 hp engines. The advantage the Mustang had was extremely low drag giving it the ability to grow 'gracefully' with respect to Gross weight... but even so it took the addition of 13" in increased fuselage length and re-designed vertical stabilizer to improve the stability issues.

Recognizing that the Me 109 maintained parity with the Spitfire (even to a degree with Mk XIV vs 109K) and that the Spit remained a better dogfighter than the Mustang by a fine margin - the real issue is that the 109 didn't have to fight against the Spit over Germany in the crucial battles but did have to engage a faster Mustang with near same performance otherwise.

The comments about pilot quality are the most direct regarding positive changes, as well as focusing on the high altitude version of the Fw 190 much earlier so that an airframe design with growth potential could keep pace.

While I agree that the Me 262 intoduced earlier would have been 'nice for LW..bad for 8th BC' - it would not have been introduced early enough - and it still wouldn't have stopped the Soviet Army advancing from the east.

Priority number 1 - grow more fighter pilots in 1941 to backfill attrition from BoB and Barbarossa. Maintain that pace.
Priority number 2 - favor FW 190 as growth engine - conventional fighter and start cutting back on Me 109 production in 1942.
Priority number 3 - prioritize acquisition of critical materials for Jumo engines and finance non metal construction jet airframes for 1944 production fighter and bomber.

Had German high command recognized the potential danger of huge production capacity (pilots and aircraft) based in England in 1942 they might have come to the same conclusions.

 

[drgondog]

I believe they could quite easily have done the following:

1) Add a blown canopy and eliminate the heavy framing and almost non-existent visibility forward-left or right.

2) Improve the wing mounting to be 4 bolts instead of 3. with wing integrity being guaranteed for any three remaining bolts.

3) Move the gear out onto the wing for a wider stance. It could still retract outward or move further out and retract inward.

4) Put in 50% more fuel; there wasn't much to start with.

5) To handle these changes, the airframe would have to grow about 10% in wing area and some percentage in tail area. Not sure if length would be an issue as I have done no calculations.

6) Add rudder and Aileron trim.

7) Change the leverage ratio so the pilot could apply more than 1/3 or less aileron at anything over 250 mph.

8) I'd try an Fw 190-style wide-blade prop, but it wouldn't be a game changer since the Me 109 was competitive right until the end anyway.

The changes above WOULD be a game changer and could make the 109 the premier fighter ... perhaps. I'd love to see one so modified but, at this late date, if I had a 109, I'd restore it to stock wartime condition for the sake of posterity and historical significance.

The are no game changers for the Bf 109 series. The original airframe and wing were well suited to the changes made through the F series. After that, with the increased engine Hp growth, most of the issues you raise are due to inadequate control surfaces for both ailerons and rudder. Increasing length and heighth of vertical stab would have helped at cost of an increase in drag.

The Erla canopy and the K airframe were nice mods and did assist in making the K a better airframe -

Net - Grow weight (fuel, engine) to improve mission and you degrade structural integrity and generally stability unless you modify stability parameters such as moment arm from Center of Lift/Pressure wing to stabilizer or increase control surfaces (which go back to structural limitations).

Increase wing area and you have to look at entire airframe structure from wing carry through structure, longeron structure to eppenage structure to look at wing bending and tail torque load paths to test for suitability. I seriously imaging these issues and solutions were looked at by Herr Willy... and discarded as modification solution to existing airframe.

I have zero notion regarding the 309 being the answer if it was positioned to follow the early G releases as 'end of life for Bf 109 series. I think the test there is 309 vs FW 190D both in time available and performance.

At any rate neither really improve the overall tactical capability of Germany versus RAF/USAAF in the west in context of game changer. The only Game Changer scenario for me in context of air supremacy versus strategic bombing is the 262 (or 280) very early in the mid 1943 timeframe...

 

[stona]

Same thing for trainer aircraft and instructors: whenever an emergency arrived they were sent to the front, without ever returning to the training units.
Kris

There are always limited resources,particularly for Germany. The instructors were sent where they were needed,be it North Afria or to support the various air lifts/air bridges on the Easern Front. Hard choices HAVE to be made. Would you have maintained the training schools and abandoned your encircled armies? You can't have it both ways.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

All jet engines ran on what,as an ex-chemist,I would describe as "medium weight hydrocarbon fuels". This is why I said "diesel type" fuels.
Kerosene and Diesel are not chemical definitions one is a registered trade mark and the other someone's name. Kerosene (Paraffin this side of the pond) is a diesel type fuel or vice versa. Paraffins (a group of chemicals properly called alkanes) are the primary component of both Kerosene and diesel fuels.

You can't make jet engines without complex alloys. The metals required for these were either unavailable or being used in other programs,notably in U-boat construction. This had a deliterious effect on the jet engines that were produced and militates against a large production program without at the very least some realignment of production priorities.

The pre/early war Luftwaffe pilot training program did indeed produce high quality personel. The problem,crudely,is that by the time any jet fighter was going to enter service most of them were dead.

Cheers

Steve

The points against He 280 in late 41- early 43 timeframe from operational PoV.
-Very short range
-IMHO totally unsuited to operate of all places from most fighter fields in SU and Africa with its "vacuum cleaners"
- Most of Jagdfliegern were fighting very far from Germany proper at the end of difficult supply routes, not a good time for introducting totally new technology which used a different kind of fuel.

And in 41-42 109s still did extremely well and 190 was coming into service. In 41-42 Germany was mostly bombed by night, so a plane like He 280 seemed to be rather superflous for requirements.

Both are good points regarding the disadvantages of the program, but again, this scenario called for advanced knowledge of the coming of the P-51 and the shift of airpower early on.

Had the RLM known ahead of time that they needed to "sh!t or get off the pot" in regards to available technology development, they could have funded the jet engine program and given it a priority at a time when they had resources available.

Junkers, Heinkel and BMW all primarily funded thier engines until later in the war when it became urgent to produce them and by then it was far too late.

The He280 was under development before the war began, being ready for production by 1941. At this point, HAD the RLM have offered a priority to the program and HAD they put funding and much needed resources into the reach of the jet engine manufacturers, it would have changed the face of the jet fighter program at a point in time when the Luftwaffe was able to train and develope a solid jet fighter force.

This would also allow the Bf109 to be developed without robbing the DB engines for a competing airframe as well as the kerosene production for jet fuel keeping the gasoline production at the disposal of the conventional fighters. The kerosene fuel can be extracted from a variety of sources and a valuable by product of kerosene production is lubricating oils.

Granted, the range of the He280 was 230 miles (370 km), but again, this is with the Hs 8 engine and not the desired Hs 30 or the Hs 011 all of which suffered due to lack of funding and priority.

Let's just say, for a moment, that the RLM did take this technology serious early on, and developed both jets at a time when they could afford to produce both the jet aircraft and pilots for them...as well as produce the much modified Bf109 versions being proposed in this thread. What's not to say that they would send the advanced Bf109 out to offensive areas, such as NA and the Ostfront, keeping the Jets in Europe proper, creating a well defended airspace.

There's no reason to think that all of the airfields in North Africa were dirt and grass as well as the Eastern front. Once these areas were secured, the existing airbases could be repaired or new airfields developed to allow for the advanced jet fighters to move in and secure that area's airspace.

 

[Civettone]

There are always limited resources,particularly for Germany. The instructors were sent where they were needed,be it North Afria or to support the various air lifts/air bridges on the Easern Front. Hard choices HAVE to be made. Would you have maintained the training schools and abandoned your encircled armies? You can't have it both ways.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

Steve

Most of the discussions we have are with 20/20 hindsight vision. That is often a problem preventing us to see it from the viewpoint of those times. But we can sometimes make general statements which we believe should have been accepted in those days without looking at the future. For instance, that 1944 would bring a strategic bombing offensive with long-range escort planes should have been visible from late 1943 onwards. Contemporary sources such as Galland show us that this was expected but disregarded by nazi leadership. Another example would be the use of jet fighters. This, I believe, would not be wise to give full priority from a 1941 viewpoint. Who would have thought the jet fighter would make all piston fighters redundant just four year later?

That being said, I believe that the weaknesses of Germany in WW2 were STRUCTURAL, not anecdotal. In most countries there was a systemic approach to military reforms, production plans, allocations of resources, etc. This did not always mean the end result was succesful but at least was the result of experts giving their best opinion and the people in charge taking these advices into account. In Germany, this only existed up to a certain degree. Any plans could be and often were stricken overnight by nazi leaders like Hitler who would make rash irrational intuitive decisions. Very sometimes this turned out to be succesful (Ardennes 1940), most of the time it didn't (...).

In this case, every country should match aircraft production to training programs. There is NO point in increasing production if you don't have the pilots, fuel, facilities, ... to support them. Germany should better have produced 10,000 fighter planes in 1944 instead of 20,000 but put better pilots in them. This is not just with full hindsight, this is logical strategic thinking. Now and then.

Kris

 

[stona]

It was a lack of what we would now call strategic planning that led to "firefighting" measures like sending flying instructors to fly transports in Africa and the East. This lack of planning pre-dates the outbreak of hostilities. It has much to do with nazi ideology and little to do with military or strategic neccessity.

In a way this is also why the sort of sensible response to the impending Allied air superiority suggested by GrauGeist never happened.

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

It was a lack of what we would now call strategic planning that led to "firefighting" measures like sending flying instructors to fly transports in Africa and the East. This lack of planning pre-dates the outbreak of hostilities. It has much to do with nazi ideology and little to do with military or strategic neccessity.

In a way this is also why the sort of sensible response to the impending Allied air superiority suggested by GrauGeist never happened.

Steve

I absolutely agree...

Ignoring the jet potential because the aircraft didn't have propellors or looking over a sound bomber design because it wasn't capable of dive-bombing are strong indicators of why the German war effort was doomed before it even got started.

 

[Civettone]

Reminds me of how Hitler reacted when Speer showed him the projected tank production figures of the US. Hitler said he found German cars better than American cars, so for sure they wouldn't be able to build good tanks.

At a moment like that, I wonder how can still expect to win the war.
Kris

 

[Tante Ju]

It was a lack of what we would now call strategic planning that led to "firefighting" measures like sending flying instructors to fly transports in Africa and the East. This lack of planning pre-dates the outbreak of hostilities. It has much to do with nazi ideology and little to do with military or strategic neccessity.

I disagree. You cannot pre plan for years when the situation is constantly changing. The German lost the strategic initiative by 1942 and were reacting the Allied developments and strategy. They simply did not have the luxury of sitting comfortably in England and steadily building up their forces according to the planes they hatched. There was a war going on in Russia, which had to be fought and won. Firefighting was exactly because the original plans were constantly rendered obsolate by the events. There was no such pressure, ever, on the Western Allies. Sure they would need to get back on the continent, but there was never any deadline for that.