The airplane that did the most to turn the tide of the war.

[fubar57]

Map of wartime Chain Home Radar Stations in England, Scotland and Wales

 

[GrauGeist]

Wow, I grew up in Southend and never knew that it faced Germany, which it doesn't. Are you American or something? This is the biggest pile of crap that I've ever read on this site.

A basic grasp of geography would reveal that Germany is due east of England.
Even this stupid American knows that Berlin is further north than London...

 

[Schweik]

You do have a direct path to Germany due East of Yorkshire, not to Berlin but to Bremen / Bremerhaven, Hamburg etc. Ironically for centuries these being towns (Free Cities) with close economic and cultural ties to England, whose civilian populations were reluctant to go to war with the English, which unfortunately ended up being the first places to get incinerated in retribution for the German Blitz.

 

[Kevin J]

A basic grasp of geography would reveal that Germany is due east of England.
Even this stupid American knows that Berlin is further north than London...

I guess he could be referring to the Netherlands, i.e. the Dutch as opposed to the Deutsch, but that would be like calling a Canadian, an American.

 

[Schweik]

Well lets be fair, German aircraft weren't flying from Germany to fly their raids during the BoB were they?

 

[pbehn]

I guess he could be referring to the Netherlands, i.e. the Dutch as opposed to the Deutsch, but that would be like calling a Canadian, an American.

If you set off from Calais and head exactly due east you will go right though the German industrial area then to Hanover and then Berlin, you are wrong, I suggest you apologise.

 

[Schweik]

This is turning into another of those wars of half-truths...

 

[Shortround6]

Wow, I grew up in Southend and never knew that it faced Germany, which it doesn't. Are you American or something? This is the biggest pile of crap that I've ever read on this site.

Let me see if I can clarify this "pile of crap".

A, I never said that southend faced Germany, please quote where I did.
B, I said "Any Chain Home station north of Southend (north side of the Thames) was facing Germany.
C, Yes, the German planes would have overfly Belgium and Holland (mostly Holland).
D, Southend is just slightly higher in latitude than Essen Germany (and roughly in line with the rather twisty border between Belgium and Holland.
E, Essen is about 150 miles from the North Coast of Germany
F, I may be an American but even I know that a radar station built in Bamburgh England is not Facing France.

 

[Kevin J]

If you set off from Calais and head exactly due east you will go right though the German industrial area then to Hanover and then Berlin, you are wrong, I suggest you apologise. View attachment 529175

No chance mate, as you can see Southend is opposite the Netherlands. If you're going a bombing to Berlin you're going to come down from Lincolnshire or Yorkshire. If you're going to bomb Southend you're going to come across from Belgium or the Netherlands. You've shown a map of the route their tanks would have had to take. East Anglia has never been opposite Germany in all its geographical history, its always been opposite the Netherlands.

 

[drgondog]

I generally agreed with Wes' perspectives about parsing major turning points in WWII - but would favor the failure to take Moscow in 1941 as my personal 'fav'' Capturing Moscow was far more than symbolic - it was THE rail network from all points east, north and south and most importantly from major industrial centers to east and oil to south west. USSR logistics to fight, and supply armies fighting Germany would have been an impossible task.

 

[Kevin J]

Let me see if I can clarify this "pile of crap".

A, I never said that southend faced Germany, please quote where I did.
B, I said "Any Chain Home station north of Southend (north side of the Thames) was facing Germany.
C, Yes, the German planes would have overfly Belgium and Holland (mostly Holland).
D, Southend is just slightly higher in latitude than Essen Germany (and roughly in line with the rather twisty border between Belgium and Holland.
E, Essen is about 150 miles from the North Coast of Germany
F, I may be an American but even I know that a radar station built in Bamburgh England is not Facing France.

Its still a pile of crap. You should have said north of The Wash. Both Belgium and the Netherlands were neutrals at the beginning of WW2.

 

[Shortround6]

And the Germans scrupulously held to the Hollands neutrality in the first WW I was and never, ever flew Zeppelins or Gothas over or from Belgium Holland?

 

[pbehn]

No chance mate, as you can see Southend is opposite the Netherlands. If you're going a bombing to Berlin you're going to come down from Lincolnshire or Yorkshire. If you're going to bomb Southend you're going to come across from Belgium or the Netherlands. You've shown a map of the route their tanks would have had to take. East Anglia has never been opposite Germany in all its geographical history, its always been opposite the Netherlands.

In an aeroplane you can fly over things, I do admit you cant sail a ship across the Netherlands. The UK had already been hit from the air by raids launched from Germany in WW1 and a 1940s German bomber can easily reach London from Duisburg. The line on the map is there to call it up from google maps.

 

[Shortround6]

In 1936 the British did not have a single bomber that could fly from British soil, drop a 500lb on Germany (they might have been able to drop smaller ones) and return. That is NOT Berlin, that is just crossing the German border, they sure weren't planning on making detours. The Germans weren't in any better shape at the time. Plan you air defense accordingly, not what kind of aircraft would be available in 1943.

 

[Schweik]

Lets give each other the benefit of the doubt on basic understanding of geography ... you can look at it different ways obviously, right?

Where were the German airbases for BoB? I always assumed France, Benelux, Norway etc. no?

 

[Kevin J]

And the Germans scrupulously held to the Hollands neutrality in the first WW I was and never, ever flew Zeppelins or Gothas over or from Belgium Holland?

facingDictionary result for facing
/ˈfeɪsɪŋ/
noun
noun: facing; plural noun: facings

1. 1.
   a piece of material sewn on the inside of a garment, especially at the neck and armholes, to strengthen it.
   • the cuffs, collar, and lapels of a military jacket, contrasting in colour with the rest of the garment.
     "the regiment's uniforms had orange facings"
     synonyms:covering, trimming, lining, interfacing, reinforcement, backing
     "a tartan smoking jacket with green velvet facings"
2. 2.
   an outer layer covering the surface of a wall.
   "the bricks were used as a facing on a concrete core"
   synonyms:cladding, veneer, skin, protective/decorative layer, surface, facade, front, fronting, false front, coating, covering, dressing, overlay, revetment, paving, lamination, inlay, plating;
   siding
   "the bricks were used as a facing on a concrete core"

adjective
adjective: facing

1. 1.
   positioned so as to face.
   "two facing pages"

I HOPE THIS CLEARS EVERYTHING UP ABOUT THE WORD 'FACING'!!!!!!!

 

[pbehn]

In 1936 the British did not have a single bomber that could fly from British soil, drop a 500lb on Germany (they might have been able to drop smaller ones) and return. That is NOT Berlin, that is just crossing the German border, they sure weren't planning on making detours. The Germans weren't in any better shape at the time. Plan you air defense accordingly, not what kind of aircraft would be available in 1943.

When I put 1940s I meant 1940, the Germans bombed N Ireland and the north of Scotland in 1940.

 

[Kevin J]

Lets give each other the benefit of the doubt on basic understanding of geography ... you can look at it different ways obviously, right?

Where were the German airbases for BoB? I always assumed France, Benelux, Norway etc. no?

If I was in Southend and the World was flat then the next piece of high ground that I would be FACING would be the Ural Mountains in Russia.

 

[Schweik]

Come on guys, lets get back to the planes. I declare the Blackburn Roc the most important aircraft of the war! Because nothing could escape it's deadly turret

 

[ykickamoocow]

I'm sorry but the bolded section is flat out incorrect. Hitler's primary objective all along (ie from the early 1930s onwards) was the conquest of the Soviet Union. He viewed Communism as the antithesis of National Socialist ideology and determined early on to wipe it out. His policies demanded autarky for Germany, and "lebensraum" (living space) for the "superior" Aryan race at the expense of the Slavic races which he viewed as subhuman.

Essentially, there was a domino effect of various treaties in the run-up to WW2: the 1904 Entente Cordiale which ensured Britain and France would come to each others' aid in case of war; the 1920-21 "Little Entente" which linked France and Czechoslovakia defensively, and; the 1935 Franco-Soviet Treaty of Mutual Assistance which sought to curb German rearmament and expansionism. The latter 2 ensured that France would be dragged into any war involving Germany against Czechoslovakia or Russia, while the Entente Cordiale guaranteed that Britain would come to France's aid.

The invasion of France, while partly motivated by revenge for the Treaty of Versailles, was necessitated by the 1935 Mutual Assistance treaty: Hitler was trying to avoid a 2-front war with the Soviet Union on one front and the Anglo-French alliance on the other. After defeating France, Hitler tried to persuade Britain to drop out of the fight (the whole "we are not natural enemies" routine).

Yes Hitler's overall goal was to invade and beat the Soviet Union, but he also did not want to get into a two front war since he was well aware that is why Germany lost in WW1. Hitler was always going to make an attempt to invade the Soviet Union but the main reason he decided to do it in 1941, before beating the British was his belief that the only reason the British were holding out and not suing for peace was because the British were holding out for/expecting the Soviets to join the war on their side. Of course this was false but Hitler convinced himself of that, and decided an invasion as soon as possible was necessary.

Had the British sued for peace in 1940 then Hitler would have likely taken more time to get the preparations for the invasion of the Soviet Union right, or he could have turned his attention on Sweden for a little while. Either way though, without the British in the war the Germans would have had a much greater chance of beating the Soviet Union.