The airplane that did the most to turn the tide of the war.

[Schweik]

Yeah that is a paradox about the Japanese, and a major difference between them and the Germans and Italians.. I know people roll their eyes when I bring up ancient history but quite a few of the German pilots had a Von prefix before their name and not a few were Graf Von... they flew with the feudal coats of arms of their families or their town on their planes. Those men would have grown up hearing and reading stories about the exploits of their ancestors in Centuries past, and one of the most common features of those stories in the genaeology was the routine capture and eventual ransom (or more rarely, escape or rescue) of the ancestor in question. The idea of being captured certainly wasn't relished, it usually meant a fairly major financial setback, and they faced some enemies, like the Mongols and Ottomans, with whom captivity was often worse than death. But captivity and an eventual release was very routine in the constant day to day squabbling that went in in Central Europe between the Latinized people. Not just Germans and Italians but also with the Poles, Czechs, Scandinavians, Flemish and so on. For a German knight or burgher to be captured was certainly a setback, but it was by no means annihilated the Ehren (honor / reputation) of the person involved. It was just a fact of life.

For the Japanese, the incredible discipline and hard attitude that served them so well also had this rigidity which could be a downside. Captivity was nigh unthinkable. Even escape could be looked at as suspect. In South Pacific Air War there is an anecdote about a bomber crew, I think of a Betty, which had been shot down and presumed dead. The crew were posthumously promoted as was customary and listed as KiA. But then after a few weeks of struggling through the jungle, they showed up. This caused such embarrassment and eventually resentment among their colleagues that they were (according to the book) sent out on a solo mission to attack Port Morseby so as to get decently killed.

On a more pragmatic and less ideological level, even a less hardened Japanese pilot or flight crewman was aware that not much effort was being made to rescue downed pilots, so if captivity wasn't unthinkable, dying of thirst and fever deep in a Tropical jungle or floating forlorn in the open ocean until the sharks ate you also probably didn't seem worth considering.

 

[Schweik]

The Soviets had a variation on that, being captured meant you could be 'contaminated' by contact with the Germans. Some pilots were tainted with suspicion by the NKVD etc. after being captured and escaping or even just being shot down behind enemy lines and coming back.

 

[pbehn]

On a more pragmatic and less ideological level, even a less hardened Japanese pilot or flight crewman was aware that not much effort was being made to rescue downed pilots, so if captivity wasn't unthinkable, dying of thirst and fever deep in a Tropical jungle or floating forlorn in the open ocean until the sharks ate you also probably didn't seem worth considering.

Experience in the Battle of Britain showed pilots landing in water had little chance of being rescued and the parachute that just saved their life in the air tried to take it in the water, dragging them through the water and entangling them in string and silk.

 

[nuuumannn]

(Francillon Japanese aircraft of the Pacific)

The Bible for English language interpretation of the subject. An indespensible reference, along with the predecessor Japanese Aircraft 1910 -1941 also by Putnam.

When an aviation maintenance monoculture suddenly has to cope with a new and radically different technology which stands all of their practices and procedures on their heads, it tends to disrupt things a little.

Yuyp, it does, but environment plays a big part in how the engineers cope. Are the changes brought about because of technological advance, a different philosophy or short sighted managerial change?

 

[Schweik]

True but the North Sea is tough to survive immersion in, you can only survive without some kind of special suit for ten minutes or so most of the year, certainly during Winter or Fall. The South Pacific by contrast, though it really was full of man-eating sharks, was warm enough to facilitate the survival of literally thousands of downed Allied aircrew, sometimes after many days afloat. As a a single stand-out example, during the Battle of the Philippine Sea, the US commander Admiral Mitscher launched 226 aircraft on a strike which he knew, even with his carriers steaming toward the target at flank speed, was going to be out of range for many of them to make it back... and they would be recovering after dark. But he wanted to take out those Japanese carriers, no telling when the next opportunity would present itself or how much damage they would do in the meantime.

In the event, 20 USN planes were shot down by enemy aircraft and flak, but 80 had to ditch in the sea or crashed during landing. Of those 80 planes, 75% of the crews were rescued from the sea, some several days later (and presumably with a bad sunburn).

The rest... eaten by sharks or drowned. Or enslaved by Cthulhu....

I grant you though parachuting into the water (vs. ditching) was a dicey proposition. It too was done though. Some planes lacked the flotation characteristics of the A6M3 and it was better to bail out if you had the luxury.

 

[nuuumannn]

Some planes lacked the flotation characteristics of the A6M3 and it was better to bail out if you had the luxury.

Eric Brown described the Sea Hurricane as having "...the ditching propensities of a submarine"!

 

[Schweik]

Takes some Samurai-like courage to fly one of those things off of a catapult from a merchant ship way out in the North Atlantic in January.

Truth is, we make a lot out of the Bushido mentality of the Japanese, and they did take things a step further with the Kamikaze and the Ohka and all that, but the truth is a lot of the airmen and even more of the infantry, tankers, submariners and so on, at least the ones out there on the front line were up against pretty hairy odds in WW2 and most of them were well aware of it.

 

[nuuumannn]

the truth is a lot of the airmen and even more of the infantry, tankers, submariners and so on, at least the ones out there on the front line were up against pretty hairy odds in WW2 and most of them were well aware of it.

Yup, hazard of the time. I remember reading that the German submarine arm of WW1 and 2 had the highest rate of no return from operations of any branch of any armed force in the history of warfare. Something like 80 percent of men on operations failed to return. The second highest was the German naval airship arm - those Zeppelin crew members faced the same odds as the German submariners.

It isn't confined to wartime. Look at the Space Shuttle, there were six frames, one not being orbital, two destroyed with the loss of their crew and that leaves three remaining. A 40 percent loss rate of space capable Orbiters. Even in wartime that's unsustainable odds. The Orbiters had no escape system for the crew other than exiting out the hatch on the left side of the vehicle, which was accessed by a flight of stairs from the flight deck, even then, parachuting out of a tumbling Orbiter that may or may not be on fire and successfully opening a chute is no guarantee of survival. I vaguely remember that, like the RAF Vulcan, Victor and Valiant crews, only the two pilots were planned to have ejection seats, but this was canned for weight saving I think. Again, survival at the velocities the Shuttles were experiencing on take off would rip someone to shreds. In the case of the Challenger, there was no possibility of escape. In the Columbia, when they were aware of their impending fate, again, what to do? At that stage of their flight regime, the vehicle was not powered and literally freefalling into the atmosphere.

Here's a description of how to get out of the Orbiter if there is an emergency. Note that it only applies when the thing is on gliding approach.

HSF - The Shuttle

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Are the changes brought about because of technological advance, a different philosophy or short sighted managerial change?

All of the above. Old time aircooled mechanics working on a foreign large displacement liquid cooled engine are going to encounter materials, tolerances, and procedures unlike anything they have been taught or are used to. Liquid cooled engines run at much steadier temperatures, have tighter internal tolerances, and use different alloys in their high temp parts. Their lubrication, gasketing, and intake/exhaust details are unlike anything these maintainers have ever experienced, and this goes for the entire system, including management, supply and training.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Kevin J]

Takes some Samurai-like courage to fly one of those things off of a catapult from a merchant ship way out in the North Atlantic in January.

Truth is, we make a lot out of the Bushido mentality of the Japanese, and they did take things a step further with the Kamikaze and the Ohka and all that, but the truth is a lot of the airmen and even more of the infantry, tankers, submariners and so on, at least the ones out there on the front line were up against pretty hairy odds in WW2 and most of them were well aware of it.

You forgot our merchant seamen, who risked their lives daily.

 

[GrauGeist]

"They sacrifice themselves like Samurai, these Americans"
Admiral Nagumo, 5 June 1942

 

[XBe02Drvr]

the parachute that just saved their life in the air tried to take it in the water, dragging them through the water and entangling them in string and silk.

Because, being land based pilots, they weren't given adequate training in how to deal with a parachute in the water. USN handled this with what was called a paradrag rescue trainer.
We had a Dilbert Dunker and a WWII vintage paradrag trainer on base, and as the only SCUBA diver in our group, I became safety diver on these antiques. This made scheduling of training sessions much easier, as we weren't dependent on availability and willingness of divers from the Underwater Swimmers School downtown.
As part of my prep, I had to ride both devices, wearing a flight suit, boots, a nonfunctional mae west and a helmet and O2 mask. If a real "feet wet" parachute landing had been anything like that paradrag, I'd have been a goner without that training.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Schweik]

All of the above. Old time aircooled mechanics working on a foreign large displacement liquid cooled engine are going to encounter materials, tolerances, and procedures unlike anything they have been taught or are used to. Liquid cooled engines run at much steadier temperatures, have tighter internal tolerances, and use different alloys in their high temp parts. Their lubrication, gasketing, and intake/exhaust details are unlike anything these maintainers have ever experienced, and this goes for the entire system, including management, supply and training.
Cheers,
Wes

And unlike a lot of the American mechanics, these guys had mostly not grown up working on tractors or tinkering with Model-Ts. America in the 1930's was very poor but mechanization was widespread even in the rural areas. You had a certain percentage of young men who knew how to work on engines. In Japan, the countryside from which a lot of the population hailed was decidedly not in the machine age in the 1930's. Many of those Japanese kids had never seen anything more complicated than a plow or an ox-cart before being drafted. Japan did a great job training their troops but you were really moving a mountain there.

 

[pbehn]

Because, being land based pilots, they weren't given adequate training in how to deal with a parachute in the water. USN handled this with what was called a paradrag rescue trainer.
We had a Dilbert Dunker and a WWII vintage paradrag trainer on base, and as the only SCUBA diver in our group, I became safety diver on these antiques. This made scheduling of training sessions much easier, as we weren't dependent on availability and willingness of divers from the Underwater Swimmers School downtown.
As part of my prep, I had to ride both devices, wearing a flight suit, boots, a nonfunctional mae west and a helmet and O2 mask. If a real "feet wet" parachute landing had been anything like that paradrag, I'd have been a goner without that training.
Cheers,
Wes

Any idea when these started XB? The UK didn't really start to address air sea rescue until around 1942/3 Ive no idea whether they did ditching training during the war.

 

[Dimlee]

The Soviets had a variation on that, being captured meant you could be 'contaminated' by contact with the Germans. Some pilots were tainted with suspicion by the NKVD etc. after being captured and escaping or even just being shot down behind enemy lines and coming back.

Infamous Order No.270.
Order No. 270 - Wikipedia
Quote
if a superior or a unit of the Red Army – instead of organizing resistance to the enemy – prefers to become a prisoner they should be destroyed by all means possible on land and air, and their families deprived of public benefits and assistance.
Unquote.

 

[Schweik]

Crazy. Threatened from within and without. They had to walk quite a tightrope.

 

[nuuumannn]

They had to walk quite a tightrope.

The joys of the Soviet system.

 

[GrauGeist]

Infamous Order No.270.
Order No. 270 - Wikipedia
Quote
if a superior or a unit of the Red Army – instead of organizing resistance to the enemy – prefers to become a prisoner they should be destroyed by all means possible on land and air, and their families deprived of public benefits and assistance.
Unquote.

If the German high-command decided to enter the Soviet Union as benefactors instead of conquerors, they could have taken the Soviet Union with nearly a struggle - treating them as "unter mensch" just steeled their resolve...

 

[michael rauls]

If the German high-command decided to enter the Soviet Union as benefactors instead of conquerors, they could have taken the Soviet Union with nearly a struggle - treating them as "unter mensch" just steeled their resolve...

I've read that in some areas at first the Russian civilians saw the Germans as liberators and were happy when they showed up...........which of course changed in short order. If the Germans had played there cards right and embraced the " libaratior" role and been mr nice guy to the Russians they captured/ occupied they could have met with substantially less resistance and probably have taken Russia. Speculation on my part of course but IMHO .

 

[XBe02Drvr]

If the Germans had played there cards right and embraced the " libaratior" role and been mr nice guy to the Russians they captured/ occupied they could have met with substantially less resistance

Nice fantasy. No way that would have ever come to pass under Nazi ideology. To much historical baggage vis a vis Slavic peoples and the hordes from the east.
Cheers,
Wes