Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
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Resp:Good point, although there were (rather amazingly) some Sturmovik kills and Stuka kills too, especially with the D model that had the 20mm cannon. D3A Vals got a few victories too. So did Blackburn Skuas.
But the SBD does seem to stand out as a pretty good brawler as bombers go. It probably had the best record for any single engined bomber in air to air combat. It had the maneuverability of a dive bomber with a rather exceptionally sturdy and well protected construction of many US Navy planes. Part of what was needed was better training - the scout squadron SBD pilots got some air to air gunnery training but the dive bomber squadron pilots didn't so much. Swede Vejtasa himself said that his colleagues in that same action got killed because they didn't know to make hard, high G turns (and later, to do slips etc.) when first attacked by Zeros, that is how he evaded the shooting passes. IIRC he had three colleagues shot down in rapid succession at the beginning of that fight he was in.
The twin nose guns on the SBD were hard hitting and sufficient to kill Japanese single-engined aircraft. That meant the SBD could do head on passes if it could turn to face an attacker. The SBD could also turn sharply enough to evade attacks at least for the moment. This got a lot harder when multiple planes were attacking (with one able to attack if you turned left and another if you turned right). In practice, the SBD proved sufficient as an "emergency fighter" against lumbering B5N torpedo bombers and slow E-13 float plane scouts, and maybe F1M "Pete" floatplane fighters, but not much else. It wasn't really fast enough to catch G4M Bettys, or nimble enough to catch D3As (except on a couple of occasions). The Zero completely outclassed it and even aces like Vejtasa were terrified when they had to engage Zeros.
Resp:Recently in Obituaries V2 wrote of the passing of Noble Frankland, historian, Imperial War Museum curator, founder of Duxford, etc, and mentioned his autobiography. It is well worth the read and contains some insights for those of us who are amateur armchair historians.
Below he says why he believed that the P-51 deserves the title of this thread.
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I gave you a "winner". I just like SBD.I'm really late to the table
but
Gotta disagree about the Spit and Hurricane. Their role in The Battle is of course legendary bordering on mythic
but
THE WEHRMACHT NEVER CAME CLOSE TO AN AMPHIBIOUS CAPABILITY IN 1940.
Didn't even have bow-ramp landing craft, so offloading heavy equipment would've required seizing at least two Channel ports intact.
And that
was
just
not
going
to
happen.
My nomination: the Douglas SBD Dauntless.
Imagine 1942 without them...
At which point nominations are closed!
By "winning" the BoB, The Spitfire and Hurricane prevented a disastrous German invasion attempt of Britain which would have destroyed much of the German army and thousands of river barges (crippling river traffic in Europe). The war would have been much shorter if it weren't for the Spitfire & Hurricane lousing up the best chance for destroying German military power in 1940.I'm really late to the table
but
Gotta disagree about the Spit and Hurricane. Their role in The Battle is of course legendary bordering on mythic
but
THE WEHRMACHT NEVER CAME CLOSE TO AN AMPHIBIOUS CAPABILITY IN 1940.
Didn't even have bow-ramp landing craft, so offloading heavy equipment would've required seizing at least two Channel ports intact.
And that
was
just
not
going
to
happen.
My nomination: the Douglas SBD Dauntless.
Imagine 1942 without them...
At which point nominations are closed!
Why would Germany even try to invade if they had air superiority? What was the night time litz would be day time attacks o all ports and cities.By "winning" the BoB, The Spitfire and Hurricane prevented a disastrous German invasion attempt of Britain which would have destroyed much of the German army and thousands of river barges (crippling river traffic in Europe). The war would have been much shorter if it weren't for the Spitfire & Hurricane lousing up the best chance for destroying German military power in 1940.
I'm really late to the table
but
Gotta disagree about the Spit and Hurricane. Their role in The Battle is of course legendary bordering on mythic
but
THE WEHRMACHT NEVER CAME CLOSE TO AN AMPHIBIOUS CAPABILITY IN 1940.
Didn't even have bow-ramp landing craft, so offloading heavy equipment would've required seizing at least two Channel ports intact.
And that
was
just
not
going
to
happen.
If Britain is out of the war, there is no North Africa campaign, no Balkan campaign to siphon off combat units, Germany can focus all it's attention on the Drang nach Osten, there is no Lend-Lease or other western supplies going to prop up the Soviet Union.But the Wehrmacht didn't need to invade. All that was needed was a change of government in London. Loss of the Battle of Britain, leaving London and key ports entirely exposed, may have resulted in Churchill's cabinet being replaced by a more appeasement-focused Prime Minister. Take Britain out of the war and there's no bombing offensive, no D-Day, and, in all likelihood, a Soviet-dominated mainland Europe by 1947.
But the Wehrmacht didn't need to invade. All that was needed was a change of government in London. Loss of the Battle of Britain, leaving London and key ports entirely exposed, may have resulted in Churchill's cabinet being replaced by a more appeasement-focused Prime Minister. Take Britain out of the war and there's no bombing offensive, no D-Day, and, in all likelihood, a Soviet-dominated mainland Europe by 1947.
But Seelowe was predicated on air superiority. Having gained that, what might then make the Germans not invade? Bad weather? Well, that works against air attacks from France too.
Could Churchill survive that? Probably. Weather getting worse, RAF nightfighters getting better. Meanwhile, Brit fighter production is outstripping losses by the end of Aug 1940. German bombers suffering operational attrition from all causes. I doubt the LW could put the clamps on such a fightin' nation.
It's all hypothetical, and requires the Nazis to have the foresight and imagination to focus on destroying Fighter Command's ability to defend.
However, it's far from impossible, IMHO. Ultimately, my point remains that the Wehrmacht didn't need to invade Britain to force a change of government. Lord Halifax was not alone among the political class in wanting to reach an agreement with Hitler, even given what we know today and the actual chain of events.
There's your problem, though. You have in Goering a commander who doesn't understand the conditions required for victory, and in Hitler a leader ordering city-bombing reprisals despite the fact that they do not shape the battle-space for further ops.
Perhaps. But are those night-raids going to be so dire that they force a political upwelling? The RAF had already shown German daylight raids prohibitively expensive, and the British populace withstood a further 9 months' bombing on the reg after that historically without turning Winnie out.
And none of this even addresses the fact that Addie had already decided to turn east by July 1940.
Again, I'm simply observing that the Wehrmacht didn't need to invade. My scenario is improbable but far from impossibole.
I said nothing about night raids. The only reason daylight raids were prohibitively expensive was because of Fighter Command's radar-enabled C2 networks. Picture the concerted attacks on Chain Home that took place in August 1940 becoming the first priority for the Luftwaffe in early July 1940, or even sooner if Hitler kept moving after the fall of France. Even a modest break in Chain Home coverage would have significantly reduced Fighter Command's warning time, significantly reducing the effectiveness of RAF fighter interceptions while enabling the Luftwaffe relative freedom of manoeuvre inland, including taking out 11 Group airfields. Without early warning, Fighter Command's only option would be to maintain continuous patrols which are incredibly expensive in aircraft and still aren't effective against concerted, organized attacks.
Hitler only issued the Barbarossa order in December 1940 and no assets were diverted to that purpose until 1941. There's plenty of time for the Luftwaffe to significantly attrit Fighter Command's capabilities, potentially making 11 Group's airfields untenable.