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...I think the Arrow "would of" fulfilled its role with no problem but it seems the Diefenbaker Government had a different agenda. From my understanding there was friction between Ottawa and Washington way before the Arrow was canceled.
Murray B said "Diefenbaker did the best thing for the Canadian taxpayer and I do not like you folks in the US saying bad things about him for it. How would you like it if I said Lincoln's mother wore army boots, Eh?"
Dief was chump and always will be , he was a typical Canadian of the 50's and 60's (excluding the military)with a slight inferiority complex in relation to our southern neighbours .
You cannot base anything about an aircraft's performance on a flight sim. Period.
So your claim of hiding behind the internet is foolish as well.
Them's fightin words, FLYBOY!
From the Montreal Gazette, Oct. 23, 1963,
"Gen. Charles Foulkes, chairman of the chiefs of staff committee from 1951 to 1960 testified yesterday that the Liberal Government of Prime Minister St. Laurent decided in 1957 it would cancel the Arrow interceptor program as soon as it was returned to power in that years election...Gen. Foulkes confirmed the 1959 statement of Mr. Diefenbaker that the chiefs of staff had recommended cancellation of the Arrow...the chiefs concluded it didn't make sense to produce an $8,000,000 interceptor in Canada when one could be obtained in the U.S. for $2,000,000." [I expect the $8M did not include the $308 M development costs.]
Now you have bad-mouthed Dief again so:
LINCOLN's MOTHER WORE ARMY BOOTS!!!
Don't say I didn't warn you.
George Pearkes...
I never bad mouthed Dief - it was evident that he was going to doom the Arrow no matter what.
Here's my take...
It "would of been" a very good aircraft...
...to just throw it in the crapper was a sin. You would of expected that the few built would of at least been operated by the CAF.
In the end, there was no American conspiracy to kill this aircraft. Under the same mission requirement the F-108 "would of" been deployed a year or two after the Arrow and "would of" offered the same if not superior capabilities.
We had nukes in Canada til the late 70's just for the 101 . Out of curiosity which one of the 12 books plus are you getting your info from so i can read it by myself without your editingThat is amazing and what is even more amazing is that Canada did it without ever having nuclear weapons on our soil. We are just so nice, Eh?
Bet you can't operate nuclear weapons without having them on your soil.
If Murray B thinks I'm blinded by nationalism here is a post by me from 2 years ago . I can't help defending the Arrow I just keep meeting folks that worked on them and the funny thing is many are still interested or involved in flight so I'd rather judge action over words .The Arrow was a pretty advanced airplane but we just didn't have the where withal to carry it out . i disagree that it ruined our industry we just changed focus . The DHC aircraft being an example and Canadair , Bombardier , CAE , Spar PWC and Bristol let us play with the big boys in aerospace as we are 4th or 5th worlds largest aviation nation.
Almost twice that but again that was an estimation without the OrendaThe once top secret DND memorandum I quoted from suggests it was a brick with wings. I would only have been good if they completely redesigned it to reduce the drag. Its radius was only 200nm. What is the mission radius of a Voodoo?
Why not? By the time lay-off notices were given, work orders given to destroy the prototypes and tooling, and other costs related to shutting down the program, it might of been more cost effective to keep the first two around and do R&D work. That would of proved or disproved many of the point brought up here.Why would the DND want to keep proof around that they had just spent $308 million on a flying brick?
About 2000 miles but had they escorted Soviet Bombers it would of been a one way mission, but keep in mind the TU-28 was designed as in interceptor designed to operate within the Soviet Union. I'd also bet dollars to donuts that once fully loaded with weapons at burner speeds, the TU-28 had shorter legs than your report on the Arrow!The Arrow was probably already obsolete even without the performance problems. Its giant radar would have shone like a beacon for Soviet bomber escorts. Do you know the range of one of those TU-28Ps with external tanks?
We had nukes in Canada til the late 70's just for the 101 . Out of curiosity which one of the 12 books plus are you getting your info from so i can read it by myself without your editing
Almost twice that but again that was an estimation without the Orenda.
That would of proved or disproved many of the point brought up here.
About 2000 miles but had they escorted Soviet Bombers it would of been a one way mission, but keep in mind the TU-28 was designed as in interceptor designed to operate within the Soviet Union. I'd also bet dollars to donuts that once fully loaded with weapons at burner speeds, the TU-28 had shorter legs than your report on the Arrow!
The greatest problem with the Arrow is the weapons system, which simply didn't work.
The engine was never flight tested on the Arrow but the U.S. provided a B-47 for the purpose and as far as I can tell the engine did work. Here are the specs I have for the Iroquois. 42"D X 19.25 'L, 4650 lb. Weight. 23,000 lbs. thrust and 30,000 lbs. with reheat. Fuel consumption with reheat is listed as 1.8lb/lbf/hr using MIL-F-5621 fuel. I can't read the fuel consumption without reheat.Its difficult to find information on the Iroquois engine...
Is this thread done yet?
Orenda made other engines and the Arrow was supposed to use the Iroquois. It gave 30,000 lbs. of thrust which seems pretty good but it was 42" in diameter and 19.25 feet long. Isn't a normal non-bomber engine more like 32" in diameter? They could have used it for the Blackbird I suppose but Lockheed wanted it to have those sexy bumperettes and the Iroquois didn't have any. The SR-71 was the second sexiest aircraft ever made in the history of the world and needed those Madonna cones. [Maybe there were technical reasons like Mach 3 flight too.]And you're right about the Iroquois
The B-70 and I think the B-58 probably gave them some worry as well.So I'm trying to understand what challenge caused the Soviets to modify a bomber into an interceptor. This thing killed any chance of the Arrow being the world's largest interceptor.
Murray, If I should ever meet you I'm buying you dinner!I'm sorry to go on about this but it is not just about the Arrow. They now teach our children that the entire Canadian aircraft industry was destroyed by the evil Americans. That is a giant lie and I can't be done until they stop lying to our young people.
And you're right about the Iroquois.
The B-70 and I think the B-58 probably gave them some worry as well.
Murray, If I should ever meet you I'm buying you dinner!
Great analogy. My dad had a simple saying about folks like that - "so smart, but yet so stupid."When I was a boy an accountant bought the house next door as an investment. He couldn't find anyone to rent it so he decided to turn the furnace off to save money. My dad and the other neighbors told him not to do it because it could damage the plumbing. He had a university degree and so he figured he was smarter then they were and did it anyway. Soon the pipes froze and split. When he found out he called the police to find and arrest the boys in the neighborhood that had broken-in and "slashed" his pipes. The cop checked the doors and windows and found no sign of a break in. He went inside to check the damage and the last thing I remember was the cop walking to his car shaking his head in disbelief.
These Arrow zealots have accused America of "slashing" our airplane and I am just shaking my head in disbelief. Its deja vu.
Great analogy. My dad had a simple saying about folks like that - "so smart, but yet so stupid."
The only thing close would of been a -104 or a sidewinder missile!It is obvious that you know about aircraft and like old planes. Do you know if any aircraft made around 1960 could perform a 2G turn at Mach 1.5 at 50,000 feet without losing too much speed or altitude?
Of who have a clostophobic fetish!Do you also know why the U.S. government quit funding the only aircraft ever made with 36" ceiling? It seems the perfect thing for pilots that are afraid of heights, Eh?