THE AVRO CF-105 ARROW - WAS IT REALLY THAT GOOD?!?

[Murray B]

...I think the Arrow "would of" fulfilled its role with no problem but it seems the Diefenbaker Government had a different agenda. From my understanding there was friction between Ottawa and Washington way before the Arrow was canceled.

Them's fightin words, FLYBOY!

From the Montreal Gazette, Oct. 23, 1963,
"Gen. Charles Foulkes, chairman of the chiefs of staff committee from 1951 to 1960 testified yesterday that the Liberal Government of Prime Minister St. Laurent decided in 1957 it would cancel the Arrow interceptor program as soon as it was returned to power in that years election...Gen. Foulkes confirmed the 1959 statement of Mr. Diefenbaker that the chiefs of staff had recommended cancellation of the Arrow...the chiefs concluded it didn't make sense to produce an $8,000,000 interceptor in Canada when one could be obtained in the U.S. for $2,000,000." [I expect the $8M did not include the $308 M development costs.]

Now you have bad-mouthed Dief again so:

LINCOLN's MOTHER WORE ARMY BOOTS!!!

Don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[evangilder]

 

[Waynos]

edit, removed as was talking about what was required, not what was achieved. I think this has been well covered.

 

[Matt308]

So let me understand this...

Lincoln's mother wore army boots and the Arrow was nothing extraordinary, thus was overtaken by equally mediocre aircraft in current US inventory.

Is this thread done yet?

 

[pbfoot]

Murray B said "Diefenbaker did the best thing for the Canadian taxpayer and I do not like you folks in the US saying bad things about him for it. How would you like it if I said Lincoln's mother wore army boots, Eh?"
Dief was chump and always will be , he was a typical Canadian of the 50's and 60's (excluding the military)with a slight inferiority complex in relation to our southern neighbours .

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Murray B said "Diefenbaker did the best thing for the Canadian taxpayer and I do not like you folks in the US saying bad things about him for it. How would you like it if I said Lincoln's mother wore army boots, Eh?"
Dief was chump and always will be , he was a typical Canadian of the 50's and 60's (excluding the military)with a slight inferiority complex in relation to our southern neighbours .

 

[Murray B]

You cannot base anything about an aircraft's performance on a flight sim. Period.

My nephew had a very enjoyable flight simulator on his Nintendo and I especially appreciated that the aircraft would bounce back into the air when it hit the ground. I know you are going to say that proves your point but I know better. It is probably classified but I know about your secret American program to produce rubber aircraft. Here is a photo of one from 1st Tactical Studies Group (Airborne): Combat Reform Group.

Flight sims inaccurate Eh? You won't fool me!

So your claim of hiding behind the internet is foolish as well.

No, not foolish. The Arrow zealots have assassinated the character of anyone that disagrees with them for about fifty years now.

Whenever I ask any reasonable questions they attack me too.

For example, if the Arrow exceeded Mach 2.0, which would have been a record for a Canadian aircraft, why is there no mention of it anywhere?

Why do Arrow enthusiasts insist on comparing Arrow/Orenda prototypes to production aircraft and engines? Shouldn't our prototypes be compared to other prototypes of the day?

How can Diefenbaker be at fault when the DND recommended cancellation before he is elected?

How can the drag figures be okay when one of the reasons cited for cancellation in a Memorandum dated 21 Jul 58 is, "A reduction in ferry range to 1254 nm is not acceptable."?

So the DND issues a specification and after five years and $308 million the manufacturer still has not met them. Then the DND cancels the program. What does this have to do with the President, the CIA or anyone else in the U.S.A.?

Now, let us see if the ad hominem attacks begin.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Them's fightin words, FLYBOY!

From the Montreal Gazette, Oct. 23, 1963,
"Gen. Charles Foulkes, chairman of the chiefs of staff committee from 1951 to 1960 testified yesterday that the Liberal Government of Prime Minister St. Laurent decided in 1957 it would cancel the Arrow interceptor program as soon as it was returned to power in that years election...Gen. Foulkes confirmed the 1959 statement of Mr. Diefenbaker that the chiefs of staff had recommended cancellation of the Arrow...the chiefs concluded it didn't make sense to produce an $8,000,000 interceptor in Canada when one could be obtained in the U.S. for $2,000,000." [I expect the $8M did not include the $308 M development costs.]

Now you have bad-mouthed Dief again so:

LINCOLN's MOTHER WORE ARMY BOOTS!!!

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Murray, you're a riot!!!!

I never bad mouthed Dief - it was evident that he was going to doom the Arrow no matter what.

Here's my take...

It "would of been" a very good aircraft, but again it role it was supposed to fulfill was done with CF-101s, F-106s and F-4. It also freed up Canadian resources to be deployed to Europe.

There was a lot of hard work put into the aircraft. It was behind schedule and over budget, but to just throw it in the crapper was a sin. You would of expected that the few built would of at least been operated by the CAF.

In the end, there was no American conspiracy to kill this aircraft. Under the same mission requirement the F-108 "would of" been deployed a year or two after the Arrow and "would of" offered the same if not superior capabilities.

In the end it was a sad day for aviation when the Arrow was canceled but I also think in the end it was the cost effective thing to do, at least on paper.

 

[Graeme]

In the end it was a sad day for aviation when the Arrow was canceled but I also think in the end it was the cost effective thing to do, at least on paper.

George Pearkes...



(From "Airpower" March 1979. A two part article by D. Murray Pedan)

 

[Murray B]

George Pearkes...

Mr. Pearkes was the Minister of defence and I trust his technical opinion of the aircraft as much as any other lawyer. In other words, not much.

I never bad mouthed Dief - it was evident that he was going to doom the Arrow no matter what.

Jehosophat, there you go again! It was a DND progam and they decided to cancel it before Dief was even elected. If the the other guys were elected they would have had to cancel it too.

My wife saw what I wrote about Lincoln's mother and now I have to apologize. So I'm sorry that I said bad things about Mrs. Lincoln. See what you made me do?

Here's my take...

It "would of been" a very good aircraft...

The once top secret DND memorandum I quoted from suggests it was a brick with wings. I would only have been good if they completely redesigned it to reduce the drag. Its radius was only 200nm. What is the mission radius of a Voodoo?

...to just throw it in the crapper was a sin. You would of expected that the few built would of at least been operated by the CAF.

Why would the DND want to keep proof around that they had just spent $308 million on a flying brick?

In the end, there was no American conspiracy to kill this aircraft. Under the same mission requirement the F-108 "would of" been deployed a year or two after the Arrow and "would of" offered the same if not superior capabilities.

The Arrow was probably already obsolete even without the performance problems. Its giant radar would have shone like a beacon for Soviet bomber escorts. Do you know the range of one of those TU-28Ps with external tanks?

SAGE aircraft did not need to use their own radar. The Voodoos could find the target without ever activating their radar and then the ground stations would tell them when to launch their AIR-2As. That is amazing and what is even more amazing is that Canada did it without ever having nuclear weapons on our soil. We are just so nice, Eh?

Bet you can't operate nuclear weapons without having them on your soil.

 

[pbfoot]

That is amazing and what is even more amazing is that Canada did it without ever having nuclear weapons on our soil. We are just so nice, Eh?

Bet you can't operate nuclear weapons without having them on your soil.

We had nukes in Canada til the late 70's just for the 101 . Out of curiosity which one of the 12 books plus are you getting your info from so i can read it by myself without your editing

 

[pbfoot]

The Arrow was a pretty advanced airplane but we just didn't have the where withal to carry it out . i disagree that it ruined our industry we just changed focus . The DHC aircraft being an example and Canadair , Bombardier , CAE , Spar PWC and Bristol let us play with the big boys in aerospace as we are 4th or 5th worlds largest aviation nation.

If Murray B thinks I'm blinded by nationalism here is a post by me from 2 years ago . I can't help defending the Arrow I just keep meeting folks that worked on them and the funny thing is many are still interested or involved in flight so I'd rather judge action over words .

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The once top secret DND memorandum I quoted from suggests it was a brick with wings. I would only have been good if they completely redesigned it to reduce the drag. Its radius was only 200nm. What is the mission radius of a Voodoo?

Almost twice that but again that was an estimation without the Orenda

Why would the DND want to keep proof around that they had just spent $308 million on a flying brick?

Why not? By the time lay-off notices were given, work orders given to destroy the prototypes and tooling, and other costs related to shutting down the program, it might of been more cost effective to keep the first two around and do R&D work. That would of proved or disproved many of the point brought up here.

The Arrow was probably already obsolete even without the performance problems. Its giant radar would have shone like a beacon for Soviet bomber escorts. Do you know the range of one of those TU-28Ps with external tanks?

About 2000 miles but had they escorted Soviet Bombers it would of been a one way mission, but keep in mind the TU-28 was designed as in interceptor designed to operate within the Soviet Union. I'd also bet dollars to donuts that once fully loaded with weapons at burner speeds, the TU-28 had shorter legs than your report on the Arrow!

 

[red admiral]

The greatest problem with the Arrow is the weapons system, which simply didn't work. They tried to create an AIM-120 style weapon with mid-50s technology and strangely this didn't work. Red Dean and Red Hebe are possibilities but were cancelled so aren't available. If they were, weapons load would only be 2 missiles in semi-conformal stowage which does give a good field of view for the seeker. Sparrow still didn't work very well in the late 60s, which leaves Falcon and Genie. Falcon wasn't that great and had an extremely small warhead (shoot down a Bear/Badger with a 3.4kg warhead when Vicker's are thinking that the 50kg warhead on Red Dean won't be enough?). Genie works fine but sort of defeats the object of having a M2.0 interceptor.

Its difficult to find information on the Iroquois engine, but that which is available seems to indicate that Olympus or Gyron are better. It always amusing to hear the claim of the Iroquois being the most powerful engine in the world at that time when the Gyron produces 2000lbf more thrust and weighs 1700lb less.

 

[Murray B]

We had nukes in Canada til the late 70's just for the 101 . Out of curiosity which one of the 12 books plus are you getting your info from so i can read it by myself without your editing

Other guys had N weapons here but us Canadians never had any. We are just too nice for that.

Books are not that helpful in understanding what actually happened. Too often they are written by artsy types who are trying to explain things they do not understand. I like to read several books with a critical eye and then ask some veterans, if I can find any that will talk about it. Only then can I piece together a reasonably accurate picture of real events.

Almost twice that but again that was an estimation without the Orenda.

Orenda made other engines and the Arrow was supposed to use the Iroquois. It gave 30,000 lbs. of thrust which seems pretty good but it was 42" in diameter and 19.25 feet long. Isn't a normal non-bomber engine more like 32" in diameter? They could have used it for the Blackbird I suppose but Lockheed wanted it to have those sexy bumperettes and the Iroquois didn't have any. The SR-71 was the second sexiest aircraft ever made in the history of the world and needed those Madonna cones. [Maybe there were technical reasons like Mach 3 flight too.]

That would of proved or disproved many of the point brought up here.

Exactly my point. At the time only three groups knew about the Arrow's failings. The government, the opposition, and the Department of National Defence. The DND is not to blame for a contractor failing to meet specifications especially since other aircraft could meet them. The DND does order all traces destroyed but they are probably not the ones behind this destruction. Diefenbaker is not behind it either since it was the opposition's program and not his. There is only one group, who shall remain nameless, who benefits from destroying all of the evidence.

About 2000 miles but had they escorted Soviet Bombers it would of been a one way mission, but keep in mind the TU-28 was designed as in interceptor designed to operate within the Soviet Union. I'd also bet dollars to donuts that once fully loaded with weapons at burner speeds, the TU-28 had shorter legs than your report on the Arrow!

Gary Parrish once wrote what I like to call the Parrish principle and it goes something like this, "When confronted by the reality of defeat, a nation will modify systems in their inventory to meet the challenges of their adversaries." So I'm trying to understand what challenge caused the Soviets to modify a bomber into an interceptor. This thing killed any chance of the Arrow being the world's largest interceptor.

The greatest problem with the Arrow is the weapons system, which simply didn't work.

I expect that an aircraft that is nearly 50,000 pounds empty with a 40 inch radar dish can carry any kind of weapon system it wants. The system was a huge problem but that could have been changed for something that worked.

More troubling is the report of the final RCAF test flight that I just found. Avro claimed it could do Mach 1.98 with the J-75s but the report indicates that they were trying for Mach 1.9 but only achieved 1.7 at 100% throttle. This sounds to me like the contractor's drag estimate was still too low.

The other information you provide is golden. It sounds like you have experience with these weapons.

Its difficult to find information on the Iroquois engine...

The engine was never flight tested on the Arrow but the U.S. provided a B-47 for the purpose and as far as I can tell the engine did work. Here are the specs I have for the Iroquois. 42"D X 19.25 'L, 4650 lb. Weight. 23,000 lbs. thrust and 30,000 lbs. with reheat. Fuel consumption with reheat is listed as 1.8lb/lbf/hr using MIL-F-5621 fuel. I can't read the fuel consumption without reheat.

Is this thread done yet?

I'm sorry to go on about this but it is not just about the Arrow. They now teach our children that the entire Canadian aircraft industry was destroyed by the evil Americans. That is a giant lie and I can't be done until they stop lying to our young people.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Orenda made other engines and the Arrow was supposed to use the Iroquois. It gave 30,000 lbs. of thrust which seems pretty good but it was 42" in diameter and 19.25 feet long. Isn't a normal non-bomber engine more like 32" in diameter? They could have used it for the Blackbird I suppose but Lockheed wanted it to have those sexy bumperettes and the Iroquois didn't have any. The SR-71 was the second sexiest aircraft ever made in the history of the world and needed those Madonna cones. [Maybe there were technical reasons like Mach 3 flight too.] And you're right about the Iroquois

So I'm trying to understand what challenge caused the Soviets to modify a bomber into an interceptor. This thing killed any chance of the Arrow being the world's largest interceptor.

The B-70 and I think the B-58 probably gave them some worry as well.

I'm sorry to go on about this but it is not just about the Arrow. They now teach our children that the entire Canadian aircraft industry was destroyed by the evil Americans. That is a giant lie and I can't be done until they stop lying to our young people.

Murray, If I should ever meet you I'm buying you dinner!

 

[Murray B]

And you're right about the Iroquois.

Thanks, I have read a dozen books on the Arrow/Iroquois but most of them were full of crap so it was a lot of work to extract the facts.

The B-70 and I think the B-58 probably gave them some worry as well.

I don't think the Tupolev is going to get near a Valkyrie but maybe it could for the Hustler. MacNamera's cancelling the B-70 program is one of the strangest things I have ever read about. He actually spent more upgrading old B-52s than it would have cost for 100 B-70s. It is amazing to me that the USAF was able to keep the old B-52s in the air for so long.

Murray, If I should ever meet you I'm buying you dinner!

Thanks, but you do not owe me anything for telling the truth. America has deserved the truth from the beginning.

When I was a boy an accountant bought the house next door as an investment. He couldn't find anyone to rent it so he decided to turn the furnace off to save money. My dad and the other neighbors told him not to do it because it could damage the plumbing. He had a university degree and so he figured he was smarter then they were and did it anyway. Soon the pipes froze and split. When he found out he called the police to find and arrest the boys in the neighborhood that had broken-in and "slashed" his pipes. The cop checked the doors and windows and found no sign of a break in. He went inside to check the damage and the last thing I remember was the cop walking to his car shaking his head in disbelief.

These Arrow zealots have accused America of "slashing" our airplane and I am just shaking my head in disbelief. Its deja vu.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

When I was a boy an accountant bought the house next door as an investment. He couldn't find anyone to rent it so he decided to turn the furnace off to save money. My dad and the other neighbors told him not to do it because it could damage the plumbing. He had a university degree and so he figured he was smarter then they were and did it anyway. Soon the pipes froze and split. When he found out he called the police to find and arrest the boys in the neighborhood that had broken-in and "slashed" his pipes. The cop checked the doors and windows and found no sign of a break in. He went inside to check the damage and the last thing I remember was the cop walking to his car shaking his head in disbelief.

These Arrow zealots have accused America of "slashing" our airplane and I am just shaking my head in disbelief. Its deja vu.

Great analogy. My dad had a simple saying about folks like that - "so smart, but yet so stupid."

 

[Murray B]

Great analogy. My dad had a simple saying about folks like that - "so smart, but yet so stupid."

Your dad sounds like a sensible fellow. It is a kind of folk wisdom like Lincoln's riddle, I think.

It is obvious that you know about aircraft and like old planes. Do you know if any aircraft made around 1960 could perform a 2G turn at Mach 1.5 at 50,000 feet without losing too much speed or altitude?

Do you also know why the U.S. government quit funding the only aircraft ever made with 36" ceiling? It seems the perfect thing for pilots that are afraid of heights, Eh?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It is obvious that you know about aircraft and like old planes. Do you know if any aircraft made around 1960 could perform a 2G turn at Mach 1.5 at 50,000 feet without losing too much speed or altitude?

The only thing close would of been a -104 or a sidewinder missile!

Do you also know why the U.S. government quit funding the only aircraft ever made with 36" ceiling? It seems the perfect thing for pilots that are afraid of heights, Eh?

Of who have a clostophobic fetish!