Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
If your systems could see that far, you would just report all airfields actively launching. Remember, they (the Allies in this case) will assimilate into flights, then squadrons, then start navigating. From nav they will further assimilate into packages, or Divisions. Once into squadrons, depending on German comms, you could easily start talking about where they were off a given point (bearing and range from what is now called a bullseye) which builds all airborne assets situational awareness.
Great info, thanks for sharing! I was part of exercises that did similar things and am impressed with what both sides were able to do back in the day!A major discovery from Exercise Post Mortem pertained to the effectiveness of MANDREL:
View attachment 656022View attachment 656023
Jim
JD,Things were a little different for Bomber Command night operations. Navigators of individual aircraft were up to their own capabilities to navigate to the target and back. They did not formate on other aircraft. Critical and emphasised at all times, was the need to keep the Bomber Stream compact, and crews followed timing to turning points at specific speeds and height bands. GEE was the primary navigational aid and once outside of GEE range (and once jammed by the Germans) the navigator relied on fixes with towns along the way to supplement and correct his dead reckoning navigation.
Jim
As I understand it there, was little difference between a night time RAF raid and a day time USAAF raid in terms of numbers of bombers passing over the target in a given time, The night time bomber stream and the day time succession of box formations resulted in almost the same concentration, if both were viewed in daylight they would look much different though.JD,
From an adversarial GCI perspective things weren't that different between day and night when painting the picture. Painting the picture means verbally describing what the adversary is doing, where they are doing it, and which way they are going. Regardless of whether it's a mass daytime visual formation or each aircraft is navigating individually in a stream made as compact as possible at night, it's something that needs to be attacked and delt with.
A compact stream at night, versus a large visual formation in daytime operations, would still be of some length, height, speed, location, and heading in some direction. That is the information that needs to be passed for the fighters / predators to get to the prey. And those descriptors are anchored off some common point or points, either a geographic reference or when doing close control the attacking aircraft itself.
Cheers,
Biff
I agree completely, and both would be attacked differently (swarms of SE fighters day time (mass of firepower), small groups / singles of mostly TE fighters at night). However, how you describe the formations will be almost the same regardless of day or night (which is what I was driving at).As I understand it there, was little difference between a night time RAF raid and a day time USAAF raid in terms of numbers of bombers passing over the target in a given time, The night time bomber stream and the day time succession of box formations resulted in almost the same concentration, if both were viewed in daylight they would look much different though.
I agree completely, and both would be attacked differently (swarms of SE fighters day time (mass of firepower), small groups / singles of mostly TE fighters at night). However, how you describe the formations will be almost the same regardless of day or night (which is what I was driving at).
Agreed. The German controllers often overestimated the size of a spoof force and underestimated the size of a Main Force. I believe Window had a lot to do with that.Jim,
I agree with everything you just wrote. However, from a scope dopes perspective (GCI controllers) and the comm they would use it wouldn't make any difference. The ability to count numbers in a group did not hit a quality point until the late 90s. And estimating a group size (front to back and or side to side) would be fairly easy to difficult depending on your type of scope and proficiency at interpreting it.
Cheers,
Biff
True, for each "box" formation, but the separation of the boxes evened things up.In terms of concentration of aircraft over the target, I think you would need to look at a frequency distribution of bombing times over the target and compare with those of the USAAF for similar sizes of attacking formations. I know the individual RAF bombing times are available in the ORB's, I don't know if the same is available for the USAAF. Based on their tactics that involved all aircraft bombing at the same time as the "Lead" aircraft, I'll betcha the USAAF bombed over a much shorter duration of time.
Jim
In terms of concentration of aircraft over the target, I think you would need to look at a frequency distribution of bombing times over the target and compare with those of the USAAF for similar sizes of attacking formations. I know the individual RAF bombing times are available in the ORB's, I don't know if the same is available for the USAAF.
I've only gone through this carefully on Dad's op to bomb the U-Boat pens, Bergen, October 4, 1944. 82% of the crews for the 5 squadrons I looked at (419, 428, 431, 432 and 434) bombed in a 3 minute stretch from 0929-0932 hours. I think that tight distribution is pretty unusual. Considerably broader distribution for other raids, I believe. Those were ANM SAP bomber, BTW. The aircraft was KB.762, "J" Jig On the op on the 9th of October to Bochum, they bombed 6 minutes early and Dad's navigator told me he caught a rocket from the Navigation leader for his transgression.
Jim
HiAnother map, Map of animal-themed code names for German WW2 'Himmelbett' radar stations plus of German fighter-bombers
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/976x549_b/p01z570h.jpg
There is a good web site on German radar defenses but can't find it now.