The best AFV in the Kursk bulge 1943.

Udet · Feb 21, 2006

Sorry for not bringing up exact sources, but people who have devoted about their entire lives to research and/or study world ward two AFVs told me one of the greatest -and groundless- myths of the war is precisely the one affirming the Ferdinands took "horrible" losses to assaulting infantry during this battle. (By the way, Kursk is full of myths).

They told me their researches showed up the conditions to have soviet infantry assaulting the massive Ferdinands simply did not occur during this battle.

If I recall correctly only 89 Ferdinands were deployed during Kursk.

Mr. Charles Bronson´s numbers are correct when referring to their losses: only 13 machines lost -none, repeat none, of them lost to "assaulting infantry"-.

Also the number of kills scored by the Ferdinands clearly speak of a pure killer. It is clear the Ferdinand surpassed any soviet tank killer.

It could be by far the greatest killing ratio ever achieved by any AFV.

One of my favorite books is George Nipe´s "Decision in the Ukraine". The book delivered a massive blow to the story told for such a long time by the soviet propaganda. Soviet mythology made one of its most prolific jobs out of Kursk, namely Prokhorova.

The book shook the walls of official soviet history so critically, all you have to do is visit some russian websites where -without making a clear mention of Nipe´s book- they try to "contest" the numbers provided by the author in his book, which showed the horrific losses endured by the red army.

CharlesBronson · Feb 21, 2006

Some of them were captured after the complicated Diesel-Electric transmition failed and his crew bailed out.

Check this.. at list 3 large calibre hits, none penetrated.

Henk · Feb 21, 2006

Yes, none were lost deu to infantry, but still it was stuped to send it into battle with no defence against infantry.

Great pics CharlesBronson.

Henk

plan_D · Feb 22, 2006

You don't have to lose the vehicle to have infantry causing you trouble. They'd have been better with Jagdpanthers .

schwarzpanzer · Feb 22, 2006

Yes, they would have, or Leopards for that matter. Problem was, they hadn't been made yet.

MacArther · Feb 22, 2006

I think the SU-152 was the best unit present at Kursk. Don't get me wrong, the Jerries had some good equipment, but it often broke down or needed repairs. Plus, the big gun on the SU-152 is was known to blow turrets of enemy tanks completely off their rings, with an HE round! Even if the tank could not knock out an Elefant, it could probably knock it on its side with its HE shot.

schwarzpanzer · Feb 22, 2006

Maybe not blow a Ferd over? - but could push it into the ground?

1 encounter with ISU152's vs a Panther knocked the whole tank backward, the turret landing several metres away!!

- Problem was, the explosion shattered the glass in the windows in the house above the SU, injuring crewmembers - ouch!

Erich · Feb 22, 2006

hate to be a pain in the ass boys but you better list your sources when showing pics, none of these are originals within our data base as far as I am concerned. CB neither a 57mm or 76mm is going to do that to German armor, and it is doubtful that any of your pics are taken from Kursk anyway but from Soviet propaganda sources as I have seen them in other older works on battles in the Soviet Union from the 1960's-1970. Not trying to be an old bitch just being truthful so take it for what it is worth and do not freak out please

Udet · Feb 22, 2006

Mr. Carlitos Bronson:

Did you read what I said in my last posting?

I know one Ferdinand was captured at Kursk -after the crew abandoned it-
Saw that particular monster so many times as a boy in Kubinka.

MacArther:

The SU-152 the best unit? You mean best vehicle seeing action there? If so, i have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

First of all, battlefield facts: at Kursk German losses of tanks were more than moderate. So, it´d appear the role of the SU-152 and of any other soviet tank killer left a lot to be desired.

The AFV researchers I´ve met told that at Kursk, the SU-152s knocked out only 1, repeat ONE, Ferdinand. The impact did not even pierced the armor of the Ferdinand; it was not necessary perhaps, for the impact of the soviet heavy shell was more than enough to knock the enemy vehicle out of action.

It´s appear the soviet department for mythology affairs put it some 13 or 15 Ferdinands had been knocked out alone by their beloved SU-152s. Liars.

In fact, the SU-152 were tough nuts to crack, but were somewhat clumsy and had a very low rate of fire, also very little ammo could be carried inside. Roughly 20 shells.

Also, in the beginning the SU-152 lacked any defensive armament? Did it suffer at the hands of "assaulting German infantry"?

If a SU-152 clashes with a Ferdinand, both vehicles opening fire exactly at the same moment, the soviet crew will not have the pleasure of reloading their gun for the second shot before the Ferdinand -superior gun which will pierce the armor of the SU, turning the crew into beef patties and far superior optics- makes the SU-152 explode like a ripe tomato.

The SU-152 is in fact clearly inferior to the Ferdinand/Elefant. We know, hoever, there were far more SU-152s on the battlefield than Ferdinands.

Also MacArther, you have to double check your sources when affirming German equipment "broke down". That, I was also told, is another one of the myths soviet propaganda created.

MacArther · Feb 22, 2006

Ok, I can understand that the SU 152 has limitations, but especially in the case of the Pather or Tiger (whichever had the interleaving road wheels) there was a VERY good chance for mechanical failure. This occured when dirt and debris got caught in the road wheels, and then froze over night, or even accummulated to a far too high degree. Also, I never claimed that the SU 152 knocked out droves of Elephants, so I don't see why you're trying to rebuttle me on that point.

schwarzpanzer · Feb 22, 2006

Erich:

hate to be a pain in the ass boys but you better list your sources when showing pics, none of these are originals within our data base as far as I am concerned.

Yeah I thought so too, but it isn't hurting anyone? so why not leave off?

CB neither a 57mm or 76mm is going to do that to German armor

They could destroy even Tigers (from the side), I know this for a fact.

it is doubtful that any of your pics are taken from Kursk anyway but from Soviet propaganda sources as I have seen them in other older works

They could be, but I'm pretty sure these aren't.

If those are propaganda, then are all Allied or German pictures fact?

Udet:

Saw that particular monster so many times as a boy in Kubinka.

You grew up in Russia? 8)

The AFV researchers I´ve met told that at Kursk, the SU-152s knocked out only 1, repeat ONE, Ferdinand.

I think it was more like 7-9, IIRC.

It´s appear the soviet department for mythology affairs put it some 13 or 15 Ferdinands had been knocked out alone by their beloved SU-152s. Liars.

Yes, I think that's BS.

In fact, the SU-152 were tough nuts to crack, but were somewhat clumsy and had a very low rate of fire, also very little ammo could be carried inside. Roughly 20 shells.

They weren't that tough, the gun was the best part. Kinda like a Hornisse in many ways...

A Ferd is gonna wreck an SU152 before the 152 can retort, due to both being lumbering beasties.

Also, in the beginning the SU-152 lacked any defensive armament? Did it suffer at the hands of "assaulting German infantry"?

What's the best way to protect against infantry - other infantry!

'sides the SU152 did have a local defence weapon IIRC, or a 152mm HE shell!

If a SU-152 clashes with a Ferdinand, both vehicles opening fire exactly at the same moment, the soviet crew will not have the pleasure of reloading their gun for the second shot before the Ferdinand -superior gun which will pierce the armor of the SU, turning the crew into beef patties and far superior optics- makes the SU-152 explode like a ripe tomato.

Yes, (and nice use of culinary language BTW ) but:

The Soviets are gonna roughly aim due to poor training - maybe hit or not, even with the Ferd being such a big target. If there are lots of enemy tanks, the shot may hit one - kiling it.

The Ferd commander is going to take his time, get the SU firmly in his sights and fire at a good place. The 152 is probably dead by now, if not, the Ferd reloads and fires again - making sure.

If infantry approaches the Ferd, it has to run or be extremely cautious.

If I had the choice I'd take the Ferd, the crews were better too.

If I was in a Ferd, I'd still be wary of the Zveraboi's, but make them priority targets.

I don't mean Zveraboi's are crap, quite the opposite, that's just my opinion.

Also MacArther, you have to double check your sources when affirming German equipment "broke down". That, I was also told, is another one of the myths soviet propaganda created.

No, German equipment was about as reliable as a British Bus service (i.e. not very).

Erich · Feb 22, 2006

evidently my statements regarding the internal explosions are not clear. the popping off the top of the deck would not be caused from a 76mm or 57mm round, they are internal blow outs or could of been even caused by a direct bomb hit. the explosives engaged by German crewmen when abandoning heavy armor of all sorts fill the bill exactly as shown. note the group of 4 Panzers in close proximityin the phot presented.

Soviet optics suck for a fact including the crudeness of tactics and internal equipment as you pointed out. in a fair off and long range duel the Germans have it hands down. The Su 152 was not a noted German panzer killer but more of heavy concrete pillbox buster. the vehicle was slower than a turd coming out, had a freind serve in the 1st Infantrie Div. in Ost Preussia` 45, they popped these slow beasts with panzerfuast from the rear and they really brewed up good according to him, besides getting stuck in the Preussian marshes something that is never told in modern day warfare history books. Ebenrode for one, that battle cost the Soviets 400 panzers to capture the area, and according to the Soviet propaganda books on the war in 1944-45 they call it a massive victory rolling over all opposition in October of 44. In reality they got their balls crunched pretty severly, did not matter what they used, T-34's Su's, or JS 1-'s or 2's

delcyros · Feb 22, 2006

Hi all.
Can anyone provide a good link for the involved
tanks?
I am particularly interested in armor layout,
AP-shells (weight, AP-capdesign), ballistic datas for
the main guns (muzzle VO, striking velocity and angle of fall relative to distances).
With these datas I should be able to extrapolate each unit´s immune zone against each other in theory. This may stop the discussion wether a gun can penetrate the armor of a Ferdinand or not.

CharlesBronson · Feb 22, 2006

Mr. Carlitos Bronson:

Did you read what I said in my last posting?

I know one Ferdinand was captured at Kursk -after the crew abandoned it-
Saw that particular monster so many times as a boy in Kubinka.

¿Y quien dijo que no señor don Udet?

---------

And Erich , sorry I have to desagree there is at list 2 examples of turret blown off for internal explotions due gunfire in the pics I ve posted.
And my source is not the russian propaganda but a more serius one.

Erich · Feb 22, 2006

yes Wittmanns Tiger 1 hit by a 17 pounder at close range, seen it, done that.

what is your Soviet source if it is serious.

CharlesBronson · Feb 22, 2006

Wittman is a example , there are others.

Sources.

CharlesBronson · Feb 22, 2006

Some interesting "Lend and Lease" materiel present in this gigantic battle and used by the CCCP.

M-3 Lee/Grant

The russian learn to hate this tank, they call it "the grave of six brothers"...compare that with the nickname of "Bolt Bucket" assigned by the U.S soldiers in North Afrika, The Grant could be penetrated even by the 50 mm kwk used in the Pz III ausf M and the PAK 38.

Churchill Mk-III/IV, well armored , good trench and ditch crossing capabilities ( It was designed for that), but terribly slow and outgunned ( The 6 pounder cannot fire HE ammo until 1944) aniway the ruskies like it because it did not explode went hit and it cath fire very slowly allowing in the majority of the cases a safe bail out by his crew.

M-3 Scout car with Browning M2 .50BMG.

Bren carrier armed with a .....Boys rifle, amazing. even the russian had PTRS and PTRD wich were was far superior......They never say no at the gifts.

Erich · Feb 23, 2006

CB I have seen the 1st and 3rd reference and I was not impresssed, especially the 3rd with Soviet news agency pics from all through the war and not necessairly at Kursk.

have you tried true German sources as Geroge Nipes work on the Kursk?mius Battles and probably the best German source from Kommanduer Sylvester Stadler ~ W-SS Die Offensive gegen Kursk 1942, Munin Verlag.

I have the bibldbands of 1st, 2nd W-SS and nothing seems to appear that a small diametre hit could pop the deck and turret off a German tank. A larger round such as a 122mm obviously and alos at close range. soviet tanks on the other hand a 37mm tungsten round from a Mk 103 could pop a T-34's lid right off given a lucky hit at the turret base............oh well on it goes.

please site the sources of your photo content please even if they are personal. We need to start doing this, as I have got some personal mails to that effect from other research chaps the last weeks

Soren · Feb 23, 2006

There is no Allied AT gun that could pop the turret off a Tiger or Panther. And the pictures showing the turrets laying besides the tank, shows the result of an internal explosion, not the kinetic energy of the round which caused it. (Its the same with Wittmann's Tiger)

Ball Turret Gunner · Feb 23, 2006

Inspite of the photo's of destroyed Tigers shown, I still say the Tiger was the best vehicle at Kursk.

The best AFV in the Kursk bulge 1943.

Wich was the best tank/tankhunter in the Kursk-Orel battle

Klimenti Vorozhilov KV-1S

T-34 M1943

Panther ausf.D

Panzer ausf.G

Assault gun SU-152

Henschel Tiger I

Tankhunter Porsche Ferdinand

Churchill Mk-III/IV

Panzer III ausf.M

Banned

Senior Master Sergeant

Master Sergeant

Lieutenant Colonel

Senior Airman

Staff Sergeant

Senior Airman

the old Sage

Banned

Staff Sergeant

Senior Airman

the old Sage

Tech Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

the old Sage

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

the old Sage

1st Lieutenant

Airman 1st Class

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