The Bf 109 aka ME-109 landing gear myth research thread.

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"..... My understanding is that other things such as engine torque or green pilot actually were the causes for such accidents. The narrow track just contributed to the problem. It wasn't, in itself, the actual problem but when the engine created torque, the narrow track enhanced the resulting handling problem. And presto...." :)

The Me-109 was a great plane to fly and fight in .... the numbers show that .... plus the longevity and manufacturability of the design (RM's). But it was an unforgiving aircraft. True or False?

MM

MM
 
Table 159 -- Airplane Losses on Combat Missions in European Theater of Operations, By Type of Airplane and by Cause of Loss: Aug 1942 to May 1945

All Types

Total - 11,687
Enemy Aircraft - 4,274
Anti-Aircraft - 5,380
Other Causes - 2,033 > 17.4%

Table 160 -- Airplane Losses on Combat Missions in Mediterranean Theater of Operations, By Type of Airplane and by Cause of Loss: Jun 1942 to May 1945

Total - 6,731
Enemy Aircraft - 2,526
Anti-Aircraft - 2,441
Other Causes - 1,764 > 26.2%
 
It seems problem is yours. This seem perfectly normal for air for in operation.. non-combat loss, typical 20-40%


Trouble is, the Luftwaffe hardly ever operated under normal conditions. Even when they were enjoying their best victories, over France and Poland, they suffered a heavier than "normal". Over Poland, they suffered 285 combat losses and a further 220 to noncombat reasons. Often forced to operate from rough forward strips the attrition rate is particulalry noteworthy. Over France the LW suffered an attrition rate (combat and noncombat) of over 36%.

The losses to noncombat reasons in Russia. Though some aircraft were just rendered unserviceable, by the end of July '41, the German operational strength had fgalen to about 30% of its strength at the beginning of the camapign. Thereafter the best month for operational runners was June 1942, when 4 air fleet achieved an operational readiness rate of 72%. According to Hayworth, German losses to non-combat courses ran at between 40 and 45% per month. Some of these might be repairable, some mighht not, but small wonder that by 1945, there were only 1500 aircraft available on the front. This is after over 100000 aircraft had been produced.

As the bombing offensive warmed up, the accident rate over Germany also increased. It makes sense that pilots with limited ezxperience, called upon to operate in conditions of extreme stress are going to suffer a high attr4ition rate. At the beginning of 1944, over Germany it was about 30% of the force structure per month. By the end of the year, this had increased to 45%. For Night Fighters and the Wild Sau aircraft, the loss rates exceeded 50% per month.

It is not valid to try and compare the allied loss rates to those suffeered by Germany. At least not the western allies. They were never subjected to the same stresses as the Luftwaffe, had some inbuilt advantages (like stell matting for rough strips) and all round, never pushed their air forces to the same extent as the Axis



I think I saw data for Bf 109 accident rate for landing accidents. Not very high - 1-2% of all loss I recall my memory. Of course all planes had accidents. Fw 190 had wide landing gear - think it never ground looped..? I do not.

Well, over France in April 1941, the losses due to landing/TO accidents as a proportion of the total losses were about 40%. These were the best pilots in Germany at the time. Does not tally up to your claim......
 
P-40K-5 said:
I forgot, somebody asked what happened to all the aircraft:

View attachment 172698

burried all over the forests of Germany.
Click to expand...


if i am not mistaken this pic is of an lw installation in norway. all the ac that wasnt whisked away for testing and the like were bull dozed into a ditch and covered over. i have friends in norway i keep encouraging to go treasure hunting. i dont think you would find that in mainland germany. after the war the contry was in shambles and they recycled anything that was of use. while the 357th was stationed at neubiberg the former LW maintenance crews were tasked with dismantling, first the former LW ac, and then the non-essential planes of the occupation force.

Mustang Aces of the 357th Fighter Group - Google Books

this link shows carson's Nooky Booky IV and others in the process of being scrapped.

if you are going to talk about the gear and landing accidents there are a lot of things you will have to consider. 1) under normal conditions any accident where the gear didnt malfunction is most likely going to be deemed "pilot error". they are not going to blame the plane. 2) the conditions under which the crash landing prevailed.... a lot of guys nursed shot up birds hoping to get back to any friendly base if possible. there, often a normal landing was impossible due to shot up flight controls. so they bellied in...considered a crash landing. 3) weather. escorts based in the uk would often have to put down at a 9th AF base in france due to low fuel or bad weather back home. i know of one guy who made a perfect landing on the snow covered "pierced steel" runway but when he tapped the brakes his bird skided into a dirt pile. others got back to england to 0 viz and 0 ceiling. some tried to land ( some cracked up a few made it in safely) but others bailed out. the LWs operation in the east was often a constant move. they were moving up to the front or pulling back and had to deal with make shift fields. read Rall or Hartmann's accounts. they werent looking for grass strips in particularly. they were looking for anyplace they could operate from. most of the major air dromes in germany were paved runways and 109s and 190s flew out of them but they were easy to spot and thus easy targets. after Doolittle took over and game the USAAF the chance to go hunting the LW took to hiding installations. a large paved runway is a dead givaway. many of the ad hoc airstrips were discouvered by accident while straffing something else.

as for the 109 in particular i have yet to find the story i was looking for. it was from one of the major german aces and his recounting of learning to fly the 109. they way i remember it was after several hours of training in some sort of duel control ac they set out to solo. the first 2 boys took off and flew around the traffic pattern a couple times. but both crashed and died on landing. this was unsettling for the rest of the class who had to fly next. i will keep digging until i find it. but he was not too keen on this aspect of the plane.
 
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I search through some of my old resources and found losses for Norway 1942 - 45 - all losses with explanation and % damaged rates. I'm trying to sperate just the 109s and break it down. Now I understand its only one small theatre but it may give us an idea. Will try to post later tonight.
 
@ bobby,

it was one possible reason on where did " all the 109's go". I'm sure they did the same in Germany.
plus, I don't see any finnish markings on those warbirds.

cheers.

*edit, I should have prefaced this by saying no doubt there were more lost in accidents then what I posted.
thanks.
 
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same guy. 'Dokumente der Deutschen Luftrüstung by H.J. Nowarra'. I think theres three editions.

*edit:

or:::

'The secret conferences of the General Aircraft Production: selected and annotated documents on the history of the German air defense and air war, by George Hentschel'
 
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I found this post in the archives. It comes out of a thread from a couple of years ago where the Bf-109's undercarriage was repeatedly discussed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Has anyone read Horrido!? In the paperback version, on page 255 is an interesting first-person account by the 237 victory ace, Willi Batz:

(The preface reads: His second washout will be of interest to students of Me-109 history.)

"In Austria near the end of the war we [transferred to] a base that had a bitumen runway. Such luxury! For years we had been operating from grass strips near the front. The unaccustomed experience of using the bitumen strip played havoc with our group.

Out of (42) forty-two aircraft, (39) thirty-nine cracked up on landing due to the sensitivity of the Me-109 to its brakes and the strange feel and response of a solid runway. Only the first three aircraft landed safely.""

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Hard to parse this...I don't care what anyone says.

Moss
 
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Ok, found the info for 1943. This is from a website many years ago called "Luftwaffe in Norway" ...tried to find it again an was unsuccessful. As I said, its for all types lost in Norway during 1943. I pulled the Bf 109s and offer them here.....

Dato Unit F/H Sted Reason Type Personopplysninger
05.01.43 4./J.G.5 F Kovda Enemy flak Bf 109F-4 Fw. Reinhold Bigalk Missing
08.01.43 IV./J.G.5 H Værløse flyplass, Danmark Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
08.01.43 8./J.G.5 F Murmansk havn Unknown Bf 109F-4 Uffz. Friedrich Rennemann (F) POW
11.01.43 5./J.G.5 F Schnetshusnaja (Murmansk) Engine damage Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
12.01.43 4./J.G.5 H Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
16.01.43 10./J.G.5 H Underveis fra Gardermoen til Trondheim Missing Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Heinz Schmitz (F) found dead 18.7.43

16.01.43 10./J.G.5 H Joelsjøen Emergency landing due to bad weather Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
23.01.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
24.01.43 4./J.G.5 F Sørøst for Alakurtti Crash due to engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury (Flyger var Uffz. Gärtner)
25.01.43 6./J.G.5 F Ved Bojarskaja Missing Bf 109F-4 Lt. Friedrich Lüdecke (F) POW (
01.02.43 III./J.G.5 F Ved Kirkenes Emergency landing due to bad weather Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
01.02.43 III./J.G.5 F Ved Kirkenes Emergency landing due to bad weather Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
10.02.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
19.02.43 6./J.G.5 F Området Kandalakscha Missing Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Rudolf Fenten (F) POW
19.02.43 III./J.G.5 F Ikke oppgitt Missing Bf 109F-4 Fw. Kurt Dylewski (F) returnerte til avdeling.
21.02.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
21.02.43 9./J.G.5 F Ikke oppgitt Missing Bf 109F-4 Fw. Paul Schwippert (F) Missing
23.02.43 II./J.G.5 F Øst for Alakurtti Crash due to engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
26.02.43 IV./J.G.5 F Nordvest for Trondheim Emergency landing on sea Bf 109G-1 No personal injury
01.03.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Landing accident Bf 109F-4 Oblt. Konrad Schlossaryk (F) Wounded
02.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Njal-Jarwi sjøen Probably engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury Flyet ble ført av Oblt. Gerd Senoner, Staffelkapitän for 7./J.G.5 fra 1.1.43 — 15.6.43.
05.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Nord for Petsamo Shoot down by enemy fighter Bf 109F-4 Fw. Gert Schülze (F) Wounded
05.03.43 8./J.G.5 F Ikke oppgitt Emergency landing after battle with Il-2 Bf 109F-4 No personal injury Flyger var Lt. Jakob Norz.
05.03.43 9./J.G.5 F Nordøst for Luostari Probably by LAGG-3 fighter Bf 109F-4 Lt. Gerd Grosse-Brauckmann (F) Killed
06.03.43 Stab II./J.G.5 H Pontsalenjoki flyplass Landing accident Bf 109F-4 Oblt. Lorenz Bauer (F) Wounded
08.03.43 II./J.G.5 H Sør for Alakurtti engine trouble Bf 109G-2 Ofw. Rudolf Müller (F) Wounded
09.03.43 IV./J.G.5 F Lade flyplass Emergency landing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
10.03.43 II./J.G.5 F Vestspissen av Tovan-sjøen Enemy fire Bf 109F-4 Uffz. Bruno Röhrle (F) Wounded
10.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
10.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Nord for Petsamo flyplass engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
12.03.43 6./J.G.5 F Nordøst for Alakurtti flyplass Engine trouble Bf 109F-4 Fw. Emil Stratmann (F) Killed
12.03.43 5./J.G.5 F Murmaschi Missing after airbattle with Soviet P-39 Bf 109G-2 Fw. Dietrich Weinitschke (F) POW
13.03.43 II./J.G.5 F Liza Shoot down by enemy A/C Bf 109G-2 Fw. Horst Rolly (F) Wounded
14.03.43 5./J.G.5 F Sør for Petsamo Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 No personal injury Flygeren hoppet ut i fallskjermen.
14.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Ved Murmaschi Unknown. Bf 109F-4 No personal injury Flygeren hoppet ut i fallskjermen.
14.03.43 7./J.G.5 F Pjaivejärvisjøen Missing Bf 109F-4 Uffz. Alfred Kern (F) POW men døde senere i fangenskap
14.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Sørvest for Petsamo Engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
16.03.43 IV./J.G.5 H Sørvest av Trondheim Joel-sjøen? Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
16.03.43 Reserve Luftflotte 5 H Pori flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
17.03.43 III./J.G.5 H Sørøst for Kemi Unknown Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
18.03.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Järvisjøen Emergency landing due to flak Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
18.03.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Friendly flak Bf 109F-4 Uffz. Paul Müller (F) Wounded
19.03.43 12./J.G.5 H Sørvest for Lade flyplass (Pl.Qu. 16 Ost/0447). Crash i Trondheimsfjorden Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Karl Grundhöfer (F) Missing
20.03.43 Stab/J.G.5 F Sør for Fedosero Flak Bf 109F-4 Uffz. Karl Merker (fra 5./J.G.5) Killed
20.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Sørvest for Petsamo flyplass Shoot down by enemy fighter Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
21.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
23.03.43 10./J.G.5 F Nordvest for Lade flyplass (Pl.Qu. 16 Ost/04472). Crash in sea Bf 109G-1 Lt. Hans-Henning Kolbe (F fra 11./J.G.5) Killed
24.03.43 IV./J.G.5 H Mellom Leka og Vikna Emergency landing on sea due to Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Günter Seraphim (F) Wounded
24.03.43 Reserve Luftflotte 5 H Pori Crash Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
26.03.43 Reserve Luftflotte 5 H Pori Emergency landing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
27.03.43 6./J.G.5 F Ved Murmaschi Shoot down by P-39 Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Edmund Krischkovski (F) POW (Døde i fangenskap)
27.03.43 7./J.G.5 F Ved Murmaschi Shoot down by P-40 Bf 109F-4 Uffz. Andreas Riess (F) Missing
27.03.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Landing accident due to fight with Hurricane Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
28.03.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Salmijärvi flyplass Enemy fire Bf 109G-2 No personal injury Flyger var Oblt. Theodor Weissenberger.
30.03.43 II./J.G.5 F Tolvand sjøen Crash due to Engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
01.04.43 I./J.G.5 F Sola flyplass Damage during taxing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
03.04.43 III./J.G.5 H Petsamo Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
03.04.43 III./J.G.5 H Petsamo Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
03.04.43 9./J.G.5 F Ukjent Missing Bf 109F-4 Obgfr. Eugen Fritz (F) Missing
03.04.43 1.(F)/124 H Salmijärvi Landing accident Bf 109G-4 No personal injury
04.04.43 4./J.G.5 F Tolwand sjøen Missing Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Bela Preisler (F) POW
04.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Kandalakscha Missing Bf 109G-2 Oblt. Lorenz Bauer (F) først rapportert Missing, men kom Probably til rette.
04.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Petsamo Enemy fire Bf 109G-2 No personal injury Flyger var Ofw. Albert Brunner.
04.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Petsamo Emergency landing Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
07.04.43 I./J.G.5 F Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
10.04.43 2./J.G.5 H Værløse flyplass i Danmark Crash Bf 109G-2 Fw. Heinz Graupner (F) Killed
11.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Kujama sjøen Crash due to. Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
16.04.43 I./J.G.5 F Take off accident * Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
17.04.43 IV./J.G.5 F Lade flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
18.04.43 II./J.G.5 H Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
19.04.43 6./J.G.5 F 6 km SØ for innsjøen Maljavr Shoot down Bf 109G-2 Ofw. Rudolf Müller (F) POW. Senre Missing i fangenskap.
19.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Adamsfjorden i bunnen av Laksefjord Unknown Bf 109G-2 No personal injury Flygeren hoppet i fallskjerm.
19.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
19.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
19.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
19.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
19.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
19.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
20.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Crash due to Engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
20.04.43 I./J.G.5 F Fornebu flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
21.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
21.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
21.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
21.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
21.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
22.04.43 III./J.G.5 H Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
 
22.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 36 Ost/2752 Shoot down byflak Bf 109E-7 No personal injury
22.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
22.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
23.04.43 4./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Herbert Lorenz (F) Killed
25.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Alakurtti flak Bf 109E-7 No personal injury
25.04.43 II./J.G.5 H Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
26.04.43 IV./J.G.5 H Ørlandet flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
28.04.43 12./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 16 Ost/3721 Crash in sea Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Gerhard Stavenhagen (F) funnet Killedmet 5.5.43.
29.04.43 1.(F)/124 H Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-4 No personal injury
29.04.43 6./J.G.5 F Ved Murmansk Missing Bf 109G-2 Fw. Erwin Fahldieck (F) Missing
29.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
29.04.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
30.04.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
30.04.43 1./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 06 Ost/6332 Unknown Bf 109G-2 Fw. Hubert Schaub (F) Killed
30.04.43 Überführ.Kdo./LZ Gr.1 H Pori flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
01.05.43 1./J.G.5 F Herdla flyplass Crash Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Rudolf Rödig (F) Killed
02.05.43 I./J.G.5 H Fornebu flyplass Emergency landing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
02.05.43 IV./J.G.5 H Lade flyplass Damage durung taxing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
02.05.43 II./J.G.5 F Kotozero sjøen Shoot down by flak Bf 109F-4 Oblt. Friedrich Leitner (F) Wounded
03.05.43 I./J.G.5 F Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 Ofw. Anton Schulte (F) Wounded
03.05.43 Stab II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
03.05.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 Fw. Gerhard Teinhod (F) Wounded
06.05.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
06.05.43 III./J.G.5 F Ved Kirkenes Crash (fire) Bf 109F-4 No personal injury Flygeren reddet i fallskjermen.
07.05.43 6./J.G.5 F Ved Polarnyje Shoot down by Enemy fire Bf 109G-2 Ofw. Albert Brunner (F) Killed
07.05.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
07.05.43 III./J.G.5 F Kirkenes flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
08.05.43 Stab III./J.G.5 F Ved Ura Guba Shoot down by enemy fighter a P-39 Bf 109F-4 Lt. Rolf-Viktor Sadewasser (F) Missing
10.05.43 IV./J.G.5 H Lade flyplass Crash due to Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
11.05.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Damage on UC Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
11.05.43 4./J.G.5 F Kowdosero Shoot down byflak Bf 109G-2 Lt. Günther Steinmann (F) Missing
13.05.43 Stab/J.G.5 F Nord for Polarnij Krug Shoot down by flak Bf 109G-2 Lt. Günther Zeuch (F) Killed
13.05.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
14.05.43 3./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 05 Ost/5936 Missing Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Arnold Koch (F) Killed
15.05.43 IV./J.G.5 H Bodø flyplass Crash due to Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
17.05.43 2./J.G.54 H Malmi flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
18.05.43 II./J.G.5 H Salmijärvi flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 Inggen personskade.
19.05.43 IV./J.G.5 F Lade flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-1 No personal injury
21.05.43 I./J.G.5 H * Take off accident p.g.a. flygerfeil Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
22.05.43 III./J.G.5 F Motka, Kolakysten Shoot down in battle with Hurricanes Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
01.06.43 IV./J.G.5 F Lade flyplass Crash Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
01.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
03.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
03.06.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Crash due to. Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
03.06.43 III./J.G.5 H Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
03.06.43 6./J.G.5 F Nordvest for Kola-munningen Airbattle with a P-39 Bf 109G-2 Lt. Gerhard Harder (F) Missing
04.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
05.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Alakurtti flyplass Shoot down by enemy fighter Bf 109G-2 Lt. Manfred Dahlschmidt (F) først meldt Missing men returnerte til avdeling.
05.06.43 9./J.G.5 F Nord for Urabukten Airbattle Bf 109F-4 Lt. Hellmut Steinle (F) Missing
07.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 36 Ost/1725 Air battle Bf 109G-2 No personal injury Flygeren, Fhr. Weitzenberger, reddet av Ar 196A-4 BB+YB fra Sumpfnotdienst.
07.06.43 II./J.G.5 H Pontsalenjoki flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
08.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Sørøst for Murmansk Damage due to collision with enemy plane Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
08.06.43 III./J.G.5 H Kirkenes flyplass Emergency landing Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
09.06.43 Stab/J.G.5 H Pori flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
10.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
11.06.43 IV./J.G.5 H Rognan flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
12.06.43 7./J.G.5 F Ved Motowskibukten Shoot down byflak Bf 109G-2 Fw. Ludwig Gaehme (F) Killed
14.06.43 8./J.G.5 F Øst for Nautsi Air battle with aP-39 Bf 109F-4 Uffz. Günther Kimmeskamp (F) Killed
15.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Nordøst for Kusamo Shoot down in Air battle with a P-39 Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Alois Mayrhofer (F) Wounded
15.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Tolvandsjøen Engine damage Bf 109E-7 No personal injury
15.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Nordvest for Murmaschi Air battle Bf 109G-2 Uffz. August Mors (F) først meldt Missing men returnerte til avdeling etter å ha blitt plukket opp av Ar 196A-4 BB+YB fra Sumpfnotdienst.
15.06.43 Ld.Kdo. Norwegen H Kjevik flyplass Landing accident Bf 109E-7 Ludwig Tigges (F) Wounded
17.06.43 I./J.G.5 H Sola flyplass Damage during taxing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
16.06.43 4./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 36 Ost/2742 Shoot down by flak Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Georg Seedorf (F) POW
18.06.43 6./J.G.5 F Sør for Murmansk (Pl.Qu. 37 Ost/1089). Shoot down by flak Bf 109 Flygeren reddet av en Ar 196 fra Sumpfnotdienst og fløyet til Kirkenes.
20.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Vest for Knjashaja-Guba Shoot down by flak Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Otto Kaspar (F) først meldt Missing men returnerte til avdeling etter å ha blitt reddet av Ar 196A-4 BB+YB fra Sumpfnotdienst.
21.06.43 6./J.G.5 F Øst for Kowdosero sjøen Shoot down by flak Bf 109G-2 No personal injury Flygeren, Hptm. og Staffelkapitän Heinrich Erler, ble reddet av Ar 196A-4 BB+YB fra Sumpfnotdienst.
21.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 Lt. Heinrich Schmidt (F) Wounded
22.06.43 7./J.G.5 F Ved Murmansk Shoot down by Hurricanes Bf 109G-2 Lt. Walter Geisen (F) Missing
22.06.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
23.06.43 4./J.G.5 F Ved Kouta-Knjashaja Missing Bf 109G-2 Lt. Herbert Simon (F) Missing
25.06.43 IV./J.G.5 H Lade flyplass Crash Bf 109G-1 No personal injury
27.06.43 IV./J.G.5 H Gardermoen flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
27.06.43 IV./J.G.5 H Gossen flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
27.06.43 IV./J.G.5 H Gossen flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
29.06.43 IV./J.G.5 H Bodø flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
29.06.43 II./J.G.5 F Alakurtti flyplass Crash Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
30.06.43 6./J.G.5 * * * Bf 109G-6 Fw. Hans Döbrich
03.07.43 IV./J.G.5 H Værnes flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-1 Uffz. Bruno Buzzi (F) Wounded
04.07.43 IV./J.G.5 H Lade flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
04.07.43 I./J.G.5 H Fornebu flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
06.07.43 II./J.G.5 H Pori flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
07.07.43 1./J.G.5 F Sørvest for Egersund Shoot down inAir battle Bf 109G-2 Fw. Josef Sommereger (F) Missing
09.07.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Crash Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
09.07.43 6./J.G.5 F Ca. 30 km sør for Vardø. Probably Shoot down inAir battle Bf 109G-6 Uffz. Hans Grosser (F) Missing
 
09.07.43 9./J.G.5 F Nord for Petsamo Probably Shoot down in Air battle with a P-39 Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Oskar Günthroth (F) Killed
11.07.43 I./J.G.5 F Ved Orre Crash Bf 109G-2 Obfhr. Benno Schmieder (F) Wounded
12.07.43 7./J.G.5 F 7 km sørøst for Kiberg Probably Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
12.07.43 7./J.G.5 F 7 km sørøst for Kiberg Probably Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
15.07.43 IV./J.G.5 F Gossen flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Günther Seraphim (F) Wounded
16.07.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Fiskerhalsen Shoot down byJAK-1 Bf 109G-6 Fw. Hans Döbrich (F) Wounded
16.07.43 II./J.G.5 H Salmijärvi flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
16.07.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Fiskerhalsen Damage by Enemy fire Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
17.07.43 I./J.G.5 H Sola flyplass Crash Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
19.07.43 III./J.G.5 F Olkkajärvi-sjøen Engine fire Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
19.07.43 III./J.G.5 H Alta flyplass Engine trouble Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
20.07.43 6./J.G.5 F Nord for Fiskerhalvøya Probably in Air battle with a P-39. Bf 109G-6 Uffz, Horst Oberländer (F) Killed
20.07.43 5./J.G.5 F Sørøst for Vardø Air battle Bf 109G-6 Hptm. Franz Wienhusen (F + Staff.kapitän) Wounded
22.07.43 Ld.Kdo. Norwegen H Kjevik Take off accident Bf 109E-7 No personal injury
25.07.43 Stab II./J.G.5 F Nord for Kirkenes Probably Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 Oblt. Fritz Leitner (F) Killed
25.07.43 II./J.G.5 F Ved Kiberg Shoot down by Enemy fire Bf 109G-2 Fw. Karl Vogel (F) Wounded
25.07.43 I./J.G.5 F Herdla flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
25.07.43 III./J.G.5 H Alta flyplass Engine fire Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
28.07.43 I./J.G.5 H Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
04.08.43 I./J.G.5 H Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
06.08.43 III./J.G.5 F Sør for Njal-Java sjøen Ground fire Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Heinfried Wiegang (F) Wounded
10.08.43 II./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Emergency landing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
10.08.43 7./J.G.5 F Ved Berlevåg Shoot down by a P-39 Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Alfred Leipersberger (F) Missing
11.08.43 III./J.G.5 H Kemi flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
11.08.43 6./J.G.5 F Pontsalenjoki flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-6 Lt. Herbert Knigge (F) Killed
13.08.43 III./J.G.5 F Nordøst for Kirkenes Crash. Unknown. Bf 109G-2 Fw. August Lütking (F) Wounded
14.08.43 II./J.G.5 H Salmijärvi flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 Lt. Martin Stahlschmidt (F) Wounded
17.08.43 II./J.G.5 H Rovaniemi flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-6 Fw. Horst Rolly (F) Wounded
17.08.43 II./J.G.5 H Rovaniemi flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-6 Uffz. Helmut Munedorf (F) Wounded
18.08.43 6./J.G.5 F Motovski Shoot down byflak Bf 109G-6 Fw. Christian Stolz (F) Missing
19.08.43 9./J.G.5 F Nord for Kirkenes Shoot down by own flak Bf 109G-2 Fw. Hans Thomann (F) Killed
20.08.43 II./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Karl Mayerhofer (F) Wounded
21.08.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Damage during taxing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
22.08.43 II./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Tire damage Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
22.08.43 II./J.G.5 F Sørvest for Petsamo Shoot down inAir battle Bf 109G-2 Fw. Hans Enderle (F) Wounded
24.08.43 10./J.G.5 F Sør for Hustad Unknown Bf 109G-6 Uffz. Georg Kauper (F) Killed
25.08.43 IV./J.G.5 H Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
26.08.43 II./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Damage during taxing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
26.08.43 I./J.G.5 F Ikke rapportert Crash Bf 109G-2 Obfhr. Benno Schmieder (F) Wounded
27.08.43 I./J.G.5 F Fornebu flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G No personal injury
28.08.43 II./J.G.5 H Petsamo flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Hans Yahle (F) Wounded
29.08.43 Stab/J.G.5 H Pori flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
30.08.43 IV./J.G.5 F Ikke rapportert Crash Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
31.08.43 IV./J.G.5 H Herdla flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-4 No personal injury
31.08.43 1.(F)/124 H Nord for Pori Emergency landing Bf 109G-4 No personal injury
01.09.43 III./J.G.5 H Alta flyplass Take off accident Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
03.09.43 III./J.G.5 F Poljarny-Krug flak Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
07.09.43 II./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
07.09.43 II./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Emergency landing Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Bernhard Messenzehl (F) Wounded
07.09.43 6./J.G.5 F Nordvest for Salmijärvi flyplass Crash Bf 109G-4 Uffz. Otto Caspar (F) døde av skadene 16.9.43.
08.09.43 I./J.G.5 F Fredrikshavn Landing accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
09.09.43 Ld.Kdo. Finnland H Kemijärvi flyplass Landing accident Bf 109E-4 No personal injury
10.09.43 II./J.G.5 H Nord for Petsamo flyplass Collision in air Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
10.09.43 III./J.G.5 F Alta flyplass Crash Bf 109F-4 No personal injury Flygeren hoppet ut i fallskjerm.
10.09.43 I./J.G.5 F Fornebu flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
11.09.43 I./J.G.5 F Fornebu flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
13.09.43 II./J.G.5 H Salmijärvi flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
14.09.43 7./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 37 Ost/0175 (Ved Kiberg) Air battle Bf 109G-2 Ofw. Erich Beulich (F) Missing
16.09.43 I./J.G.5 F Lista flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
18.09.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Hit by a Bf 109.. on runway Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
19.09.43 III./J.G.5 F Pontsalenjoki flyplass Crash Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
20.09.43 Stab II./J.G.5 F Kongsøyfjorden nordøst for Vardø Shoot down by enemy A/C Bf 109G-2 Lt. Manfred Stahlschmidt (F) Killed
26.09.43 II./J.G.5 H Salmijärvi flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
26.09.43 9./J.G.5 F Motovskibukta Missing Bf 109G-2 Lt. Friedrich Schumann (F) Missing
26.09.43 III./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 37 Ost/2057 flak Bf 109G-6 Uffz. Helmut Neumann (F) Wounded
27.09.43 I./J.G.5 F Herdla flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 Fw. Hans Fiebrandt (F) Wounded
27.09.43 II./J.G.5 H Herdla flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
27.09.43 II./J.G.5 H Herdla flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
27.09.43 IV./J.G.5 H Herdla flyplass Collision during take off Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
27.09.43 IV./J.G.5 H Herdla flyplass Collision during take off Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
28.09.43 9./J.G.5 F Ukjent Missing Bf 109F-4 Uffz. Hans Link (F) POW
29.09.43 III./J.G.5 H Salmijärvi flyplass Take off accident Bf 109E-7 No personal injury
29.09.43 II./J.G.5 H Petsamo flyplass Damage duringtaxing Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
29.09.43 II./J.G.5 H Petsamo flyplass Damage duringtaxing Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
30.09.43 I./J.G.5 F Fornebu flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
01.10.43 IV./J.G.5 H Sola flyplass Damage duringtaxing Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
04.10.43 IV./J.G.5 F Sola flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
05.10.43 II./J.G.5 F Alta flyplass Landing accident Bf 109F-4 Fw. August Schneider (F) Wounded
06.10.43 5./J.G.5 F Sørøst for Vardø Crash Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Richard Fleischmann (F) Killed
07.10.43 2./J.G.5 F Sørvest for Egersund Missing Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Fritz Hüllenhütter (F) Killed
07.10.43 Ld.Kdo. Norwegen H Kjeller flyplass Crash Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
08.10.43 IV./J.G.5 H Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
09.10.43 13.(Z)/J.G.5 F Anklam Enemy bombs * Fw. Heinz Mähling (F) Killed
11.10.43 2./J.G.5 H Nordvest for Egersund Crash Bf 109G-1 Uffz. Gärtner (F) Wounded
12.10.43 II./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
12.10.43 II./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
12.10.43 II./J.G.5 H Alta flyplass Damage on UC Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
12.10.43 III./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
13.10.43 2./J.G.5 H Sør for Mandal Collision in air Bf 109G-2 Lt. Manfred Assmy (F) Killed
15.10.43 1.(F)/120 H Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-4 No personal injury
 
17.10.43 II./J.G.5 H Salmijärvi flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
19.10.43 II./J.G.5 H Sørvest for Petsamo Engine fire Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
25.10.43 2./J.G.5 F Lista flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
25.10.43 10./J.G.5 F Trolla Bruk Crash. Unknown Bf 109G-1 Fw. Fritz Wawrzin (F) Killed
25.10.43 4./J.G.5 H Nordøst for Pori Crash. Unknown. Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Hans-Georg Pötter (F) Killed
27.10.43 III./J.G.5 H Svartnes flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
27.10.43 IV./J.G.5 F Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
31.10.43 II./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
31.10.43 IV./J.G.5 F Lade flyplass Collision with a Bf 109 during landing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
31.10.43 IV./J.G.5 F Lade flyplass Collision with a Bf 109 during landing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
01.11.43 I./J.G.11 H Lista flyplass Take off accident Bf 109T No personal injury
02.11.43 IV./J.G.5 F Vest for Sola flyplass Emergency landing on sea Bf 109G-6 Gfr. Werner Ziersch (F) Wounded
03.11.43 I./J.G.11 F Sørvest for Farsund Emergency landing on sea Bf 109T No personal injury
03.11.43 II./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
03.11.43 II./J.G.5 F Svartnes flyplass Emergency landing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
03.11.43 II./J.G.5 F Sørvest for Petsamo flyplass Emergency landing Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
07.11.43 IV./J.G.5 F Ørlandet flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Günther Seraphim (F) Wounded
16.11.43 IV./JG 5 F Sola flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
16.11.43 IV./J.G.5 F Egersund Air battle Bf 109G-6 Gfr. Albert Schmilitzky (F) Wounded etter fallskjermutsprang
16.11.43 I./JG 11 Lista flyplass Emergency landing Bf 109T-2 No personal injury
17.11.43 1.(F)/120 F Ved Scapa Flow Missing. Bf 109G-4 Hptm. Willi Lerch (F) Missing
17.11.42 II./J.G.5 H Ved Hamna Emergency landing Bf 109F-4 No personal injury
18.11.43 IV./J.G.5 F Sola flyplass Emergency landing on sea Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
18.11.43 1.(F)/120 H Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-4 No personal injury
26.11.43 III./J.G.5 F Petsamo flyplass Emergency landing after friendly flak Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
01.12.43 III./J.G.5 H Petsamo flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
02.12.43 9./J.G.5 F Pl.Qu. 37 Ost/2070 Air battle with a P-39 Bf 109G-2 Lt. Günther Eichhorn (F) POW
08.12.43 5./J.G.5 F Ljutkova (nær Moskva) Air battle Bf 109G-2 Uffz. Helmut Weiser Killed
16.12.43 III./J.G.5 H Sør for Kirkenes Engine trouble Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
20.12.43 IV./J.G.5 F Værnes flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-2 No personal injury
22.12.43 IV./J.G.5 F Sola flyplass Landing accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury
22.12.43 11./J.G.11 F Lista flyplass Damage during taxing Bf 109T No personal injury
27.12.43 IV./J.G.5 F Sola flyplass Take off accident Bf 109G-6 No personal injury

* F = Operativ flyging. H = Ikke operativ flyging.
 
The upshot of all this is this.......

Landing Accident - 31
Combat - 59
Emergency Landing - 15
On Sea - 6
Engine Problem - 24
Take Off - 94
Crash (unknown) - 22
Taxiing - 9
Missing - 16
Unknown - 7
Undercarriage - 2
Tire Damage - 1
Collision in Air - 2
Hit by Bf 109 on Ground - 1
Enemy Bombs - 1


Now this would give 110 loss of Non-Undercarriage loss
Combat
Enemy Bombs
Missing
Hit by Bf 109
Collision
Engine Problem
On Sea

Leaving 180 for

Landing Accident
Emergency Landing
Take Off
Crash (unknown)
Taxiing
Unknown
Undercarriage

Let the fighting begin.......
 
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