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Now [this means we have] 110 non-undercarriage losses from:
Combat
Enemy Bombs
Missing
Hit by Bf 109
Collision
Engine Problem
On Sea
Leaving 180 losses from:
Landing Accident
Emergency Landing
Take Off
Crash (unknown)
Taxiing
Unknown
Undercarriage
Let the fighting begin...
Do you have a source for that? Does that include combat losses not attributed to actual combat. See link
United States Army Air Forces in World War II
butch2k said:FYI checking my 109 incident/accident list mentions less than 1000 takeoff/landing accident out of 26000 cases...
An example :
Bf 109G-2 (wknr 10619) of I./JG 5 on 27-Aug-43 suffered a lanfing accident in Norwegen, at Fl.Pl. Oslo-Fornebu and was 20% damaged.
It's a typical accident, pilot not injured and a/c slightly damaged on landing.
When introduced the Bf 109 had a relatively high rate of failure/accident but in line with the other a/c being introduced at the time. For instance in 1937 there were just 29 accidents each resulting in injuries.
This stuff is detailled in either the medical corps documents relative to a/c accidents or the Quartermaster listing for damaged a/c.
I think Tante Ju makes a good point, if the LW in Norway never saw an enemy AC then all losses would be some sort of accident. The 109 cannot have been intrinsically dangerous in skilled hands or Gallend et al would not have finished the war.
The Luftwaffe in Norway, whilst a relatively quiet sector, nevertheless saw considerable action.
It was anything but a quiet sector from the point of view of air activity.
I agree, but by the same token an airforce that is doing very well as in France 1941 will suffer high accident losses as a percentage of the total because they wernt suffering large combat losses. An airforce that is wiped out on a mission will have no landing accidents. The problem I feel is in the use of percentages, they dont represent the whole picture.My point isnt so much that the 109 was more or less dangerous compared to its other stablemates. However credible sources have been advanced that show in at least two sectors (France'41 and Norway 42-3) attrition rates due to landing and takeoff accidents was about 50-70% of all non-combat losses, and non-combat losses accounted for a staggeringly high proportion of overall LW losses (never less than 30%, even in quiet times of the war). According to Murray, at various times in the war this climbed to and attrition rate of nearly 45% per month of the force structure.
Yeah, okay, sure, but how about that other thing, you've failed to factor that in, you know, the thing...
Moss
we look at how many plane lost out of how many produced.. of course sooner or later all planes would be lost in theory, if they fly long enough..
Thank you.. so real interest: how many accidents per take off.. or flown hours.. say, compared 190?
Not at all Najco, I think the origin of the myth is that the stats are so difficult to interpret. A 30% loss in take off and landings could mean the undercarriage was suspect, it could also mean it was a brilliant fighter with a reliable engine flying a lot of sorties from dodgy airfields with no spares.If you look at those stats I hope people don't automatically assume that 180 losses were U/C related. THose are just non-combat related. There were emergency landing without petrol, hit obstacles and a few unknows and crashes. And how much of a loss? Maybe only 15% and it was repaired? Those are things to consider.
And to state again, this was only a part of the whole to move discussion along. Norway had its fair share of combat.
I did - his numbers are more believeable and matches some of the tables postedSorry I do not know source. I recall reading it in book, cannot recall which.. but figure stuck, because it was surprising to me, how many aircraft were lost due to fault of pilots, mechanics.. and not to enemy! I recall figures were ca. 20% during mid war, and source said, 40% lost of all in accidents in 1944/45, USAAF! But you can check source Milosh and you gave.
Not at all Najco, I think the origin of the myth is that the stats are so difficult to interpret. A 30% loss in take off and landings could mean the undercarriage was suspect, it could also mean it was a brilliant fighter with a reliable engine.
This is contradict one self. In one sentence. Do you have figures? Or you talk?