In Gregs Youtube -canel " Gregs Airplanes " was a new video about the FW 190 A4 ( with MW 50, but I dont believe it gets ever this device in frontline Service ) as a great fighter, the next version, A5, was longer and more heavy. I remember a narrative from Walter Nowotny from early 1943, when he is dogfighting in his FW 190A4 against Airacobras and as I assume, Jaks ( published in Osprey Aircraft of the Aces). Here Im wondering that he could turn with the Sowjet fighters in his FW 190A4. Some times later ( five years )I get a look at a Fotostory about the arrival of Nowotny at Mont Marsan, 24.5.1944, with his FW 190 A4, in my opinion his frontline fighter from 11.43( In the german journal " Luftwaffe im Fokus " Issue 11 ) . For me very intresting is that this fighter was brightly polished, the outer guns and the MG 17 were removed (maybe other things ) and it has weel well doors. In this configuration the FW 190 was apparently light enough to compete in a turning contest with the Airacobras and Jaks. If this was carried out by other pilots of the JG 54 ? I dont know.
The FW 190 as a dogfighter in a turning contest ?
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CD Baumann
Airman
- 55
- Aug 2, 2024
As far as I know, and I could be wrong. What made the fw190 such a fearsome opponent was her quick acceleration due to her high power to rate ratio ( which was mentioned in Greg's video)and fast roll rate. Now granted this is against the Spitfire V but when the Butcher Bird first appeared the Spits only advantage was she could outmaneuver the Fw190. And she was still getting her ass kicked.
So the Yaks (Jaks) and airacobras MIGHT have been able to out turn the Fw's but the old Butcher Bird had other tricks up her sleeve.
So the Yaks (Jaks) and airacobras MIGHT have been able to out turn the Fw's but the old Butcher Bird had other tricks up her sleeve.
MIflyer
Captain
The FW-190 had a high roll rate and an excellent ability to use its vertical maneuver capabilities. But in tests even a P-47 would out turn it. An experienced USN fighter pilot flew a captured 190 at the 1944 Fighter conference and stated, "This is not a dogfighter."
CD Baumann
Airman
- 55
- Aug 2, 2024
CD Baumann
Airman
- 55
- Aug 2, 2024
Do you know at what altitude and speed that the P47 took place? I'm just wondering. I seem to recall reading that if the pilots were able to keep their speeds up in the Bolt, I think it was above 250 mph but I could be wrong, they could maneuver with just about anything
MIflyer
Captain
I think it was 10,000 ft and below because they were doing it over a USAAF airfield. The P-47 had a great roll rate and its combination of its two stage supercharging and large wing area made it very capable over 30K ft, so I do not think there was any question of the Bolt's superiority up high. Of course the FW-190 starting running out of steam at about 20K ft anyway, as did most single stage supercharged engines with the possible exception of the Mig-3.
The earlier P-38's were known to have problems fighting BF-109G at above 30K ft, but I do not know if the J and L models completely fixed that; they had much better intercoolers that gave more power even with pretty much the same engines but which introduced some other problems.
MIflyer
Captain
Okay here are the pages out of the book P-47 At War. It states that when tested against a capture FW-190 the P-47C was out-turned below 15,000 ft. But the P-47D-4 was a lot better.
CD Baumann
Airman
- 55
- Aug 2, 2024
Yeah. At some point with the D model they received not only a bigger prop but also water injection. Bob Johnson said the combo was worth 1,000 HO and then some and it helped with her low altitude performance.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
When the Fw190A was first introduced, the only Allied fighter that was able to counter it at lower altitudes, was the Typhoon.
This soon changed as the Spitfire evolved, but in the early days, the Fw190 was superior down low.
This soon changed as the Spitfire evolved, but in the early days, the Fw190 was superior down low.
MIflyer
Captain
But that was only in terms of speed, specifically the FW-190's making low altitude fighter-bomber attacks on British coastal targets. The "Clapped, Cropped, and Clipped" Spitfire V's that featured a cropped supercharger impeller to enable high boost at lower altitudes and clipped wingtips to increase roll rate were a temporary expedient until the Spit IX was available in numbers.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
drgondog
Major
I have often wondered if the FW 190s tested were properly rigged and possessing a basic performing engine. There was nothing special performance wise about D-4 until retrofitted with WI. Compared fully loaded, the FW 190 wing loading was lower, and the resulting burn of internal fuel as a function of fuel fraction favored the FW 190. The same comments apply to USN tests. Based on a sample of actual well documented flight tests, the FW 190A-5 was superior in acceleration, climb, turn, roll over P-47D-4 below FTL of BMW801D. ----> against a clean P-47D w/o wing pylons.
The other question concerns load out. The P-47 against FW 190 has to begin normally at a point where high internal fuel reserve must be maintained in order to return home.
Evenso, only the Spit IX restored maneuver superiority (great superiority in turn and climb)
In the book "Wing Leader" by Johnnie Johnson, he of 36 confirmed victories on the Western front, 1941-1945, he recounts that during the battles over the Dieppe Beachhead in 1942, he got into a dogfight with an FW 190. Johnson believed that his Spitfire, (probably a Mk V), could out turn the 190 but the 190 out turned Johnson and the only way that he was able to make his escape was by diving over a British destroyer at low level and having the destroyer's guns deter the FW 190. So no doubt about it, in the right hands and at medium, (15,000 feet?), to low level, th FW 190 could out turn the vaunted Spitfire.
