The Wright plane was not a fighter. Sorry for hijacking my own thread, but I can't let this ride.
Waynos said:
and was itself derived from the work of Cayley, Stringfellow, Chanute, Lillienthal and others.
Concerning the contributions of previous designers, Wilbur Wright wrote
"Of all the men who attacked the flying problem in the 19th century, Otto Lilienthal was easily the most important. ... It is true that attempts at gliding had been made hundreds of years before him, and that in the nineteenth century, Cayley, Spencer, Wenham, Mouillard, and many others were reported to have made feeble attempts to glide, but their failures were so complete that nothing of value resulted."
As valuable as Lilienthal was, it must be noted here that the Wright Brothers had to discard all of his, and all other, aero data as faulty and decided they had to develop their own data, which they did and it was quite superior. In 1903, the Wright Brothers were the preeminent aerodynamist in the world due to their wind tunnel experiments.
From
Further Gliding and Wind Tunnel Experiments - 1901
"They used 38 different model airfoils for these tests. These airfoils had an assortment of cambers, thickness, and shapes, including squares, rectangles, ellipses, uneven tips, and half circles, which they tested in different combinations. They tested single-wing and multiple-wing configurations. It was tedious and exacting work, requiring each wing shape be tested at 45 different angles. But by mid-December 1901, they had discovered, much to their surprise, that Lilienthal's tables were largely correct. It was Smeaton's coefficient that was wrong. The brothers also found the camber, or curvature, of Lilienthal's wings was inefficient. To remedy this, they designed wings with more of a parabolic curve that placed the high point of the wing about one-fourth of the way back down the chord from the leading edge rather than at its center, as Lilienthal had.
There was one other area where they had erroneously relied on Lilienthal's tables. They did not correct for the differences in the aspect ratio between Lilienthal's wing and the wings of their gliders. In other words, the proportion between the wingspan and the wing's chord length was different. This also affected the amount of lift generated.
Wilbur and Orville spent the rest of 1901 using their wind tunnel to answer some remaining questions regarding the shape and location of the wings. Through their methodical approach, they had achieved what no one had done before and answered questions that had remained unanswered for years. The brothers were sure they were right. Now they were ready to return to Kill Devil Hills and fly."
They didn't actually 'invent' anything
By your definition, there probably is no such thing as an inventor, as almost every "inventor" works with things other people have discovered. In reality, people who pull all the parts together are often given the title inventor, be it Bell, Edison, Morse, or the Wright Brothers.
and if they hadn't done it in 1903, someone else would have soon afterwards because lots of designers were also on the right lines.
Huh? I don't think because the Wright flew in 1903, everybody stopped working on flight themselves, nor do I think their failure would have sped up develop work.
This was a race, it was not something that the Wright brothers pulled out of their arses completely out of the blue. However they did do it and that is their legacy, but relatively little of what followed was based on their design.
This is greatly untrue.
pbfoot said:
Did not Glen Curtiss develop the aileron allowing banking turns rather then wing warping, and the Wrights were aholes for suing Curtiss
I don't understand this comment. They won the suit. Only WWI changed everything by nullifying all legal action.
As far as ailerons are concerned, the patent that the Wright Brothers filed stated that the construction they selected did not alleviate the patent from covering other implementations that performed the same function. Little wonder they won. I would have sued too.
Waynos said:
Yes, it was influential, of course it was. And historic, KK provided a list of aircraft with a common layout that owed much to the Wright. That does not contradict anything I said.
However, The Antoinette was not, the Demoiselle was not, the Roe was not and the Bleriot was not based on the Wright Flyer, neither was the etrich Taube or indeed anything at all of any note that was built much after 1911. All of these were designed to be stable, as was everything else until the FBW era arrived, which was a different philosophy to that used by the Wrights.
You're saying that they did not have control functions for roll, yaw and pitch. Or you are saying that those are minor functions. Saying the Wright flyer was not influential because of it canard design is like say that Karl Benz first car was not influential because it only had three wheels.
That does not take away from the Wright achievement, but it is far cry from saying that everything that followed it was based on the Wright Flyer, because that was the point I took issue with. What is so hard to understand there?
Maybe because all aircraft control roll, pitch and yaw.
It is the same as people who say things like the Wright Brothers invented the aeroplane. No, they did not. Many aeroplanes were built between 1840 and 1903 and several of them left the ground. It was all part of the learning process that started in earnest with George Cayley a century before the Wrights when he investigated, discoverd and set out the principles of flight that the Wrights themselves (and all the rest) used in their own research.
Don't forget Isaac Newton for defining his three laws, which affects everything, so I guess being an inventor is impossible.
But they did achieve sustained powered and controlled flight before anyone else and that achievement was epoch making, but it isn't the same thing. Why is it that people seem unable to separate the two?
Its close enough for government work.
This is the process these two bicycle mechanics used in developing the airplane
1. Data search
2. Utilizing known data, made design
3. built design
4. tested design
5. analyzed test comparing test results with projected results
6. Errors indicated known data in error
7. Decided to generate own data
8. Designed and Built wind tunnel
9. Designed and built wind tunnel test equipment
10. Ran test
11. Analyzed test results
12. Redesigned airplane
13. Verified test results
14. Designed and built and efficient propeller
15. Designed and built engine with considerable support from Charlie Taylor, the first aircraft mechanic.
16. Flew design
17. Documented development and flight.
Any engineer would recognize this sequence of events as the same sequence used in modern aircraft development. The Wright Brothers not only just "invented" the first successful aircraft, they engineered the invention.
I was a design engineer for advanced aircraft for 29 years and I am amazed at their genius. They were:
1. Outstanding engineers
2. Outstanding problem solvers
3. The most knowledgeable aerodynamist in world in 1900 and had the most comprehensive and accurate airfoil data in the world, which they generated.
4. The most experienced pilots in the world in 1903, and were excellent pilots. The Flyer was very difficult to fly.
5. Detailed documentation of their research and manufacture. Only their engine is poorly documented.
To fly is not hard. Make a big kite and jump off a hill. To make a controlled flight is not hard, just move your body. To make a powered controlled flight is not hard, add an engine. To design and make a powered, controlled flight in a useful manner that all future aircraft would use, with no useable aero data, took genius.