FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
His list has many "claims" and duplicates - a classic case of "cut and paste with great haste."
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
His list has many "claims" and duplicates - a classic case of "cut and paste with great haste."19:3, F8s vs MiGs, but judging from Dan Fahey's exhaustive list, it looks like the MiG17 leads the pack in total kills. Not glamorous, not fast, but apparently plenty lethal.
That's true, and pretty obvious, but if you parse through it, you can discard most of the chaff. If you have the patience. I discounted all the "unconfirmed" and "attributed to AAA/SAM".His list has many "claims" and duplicates - a classic case of "cut and paste with great haste."
F8 Crusader did well at sea. Most of their combat was coastal where the Navy could see the Migs.
If it was a USAF Fighter coming from western US airbases it may not had anywhere near the success the Navy had.
That's true, and pretty obvious, but if you parse through it, you can discard most of the chaff. If you have the patience. I discounted all the "unconfirmed" and "attributed to AAA/SAM".
Cheers,
Wes
Considering that helos and UAVs are aircraft too, I make that 9929 losses, and since those are USAF figures, probably doesn't include USN/USMC.Not quite - 3,744 planes, 5,607 helicopters and 578 UAVs. (Correll, John (2004). The Air Force in the Vietnam War(PDF). The Air Force Association. p. 26.)
Whoa, Elvis, you've got your chronology a little mixed up, and you're leaving out a couple players. First of all, S3s were ASW, not surveillance, and they never made the scene til after it was over. The all weather attack community (A6) was very much present, even on the 27 charlies, and Forrestal class and up housed RA5C photorecon birds as well. By the time I went in (1970), the A4 was being phased out as a front line attacker in favor of the A7 (the F8's descendant). Talk about a logistical nightmare; the A4 was a simple stick-and-rudder bird, while the A7 was a gee-whiz machine, full of gadgets and gewgaws. Now as for surveillance, I think you meant to refer to the E2, the "Hummer", so named for the sound of its T56 turboprops. Big deck carriers had to find room for a couple of these as well. And last, but not least, we mustn't forget the helo detachment, usually 3 or 4 SH3s to provide plane guard, SAR, and very occasionally, sonar dunking duties.We have the F8 as the fighter, the A4 as the bomber and the S3 as the surveillance.
All sourcesConsidering that helos and UAVs are aircraft too, I make that 9929 losses, and since those are USAF figures, probably doesn't include USN/USMC.
Never heard of an A8, but the commonality between the F8 and the A7 was essentially zero. The designs were a generation apart and almost everything was different. The one major advance with the A7 was a robust landing gear. F8s were notorious for their fragile gear.the commonality between F8 and A8 isn't the same as the F4 being used in the fighter/bomber role.
You flew behind one?Actually, they were E1Bs and C's, "Willy Fudd", the "Stoof with a roof". S2F was the ASW version of that airframe, and with a pair of 1820s, what a clatterbox that was! Shake your fillings loose. Despite its diminutive size, it had the weight, the power, and 3x the wake turbulence of a DC3. Ask me how I know.
Yeah, but in many cases they were able to track aircraft, and some were listening in on radio transmissions. Various regulations prohibited them from relaying the position of enemy aircraft (since they could pick up the IFF, it was possible to track them in the weeds), so they'd often get jumped.Actually, there were EC121s and then there were EC121s. Different outfits with different missions. There were Navy birds who did ELINT, and Air Force birds that did AWACS. Both had to keep their distance from the action, as they made juicy MiG fodder.
Yeah, quite a number of them ended up either getting shot down by them or ended up having to take some seriously creative evasive action to avoid it. From some angles, it looked like a MiG-21JMHO, but I think the F8's biggest nemesis was the F4.
The link didn't load for some reason.Not quite - 3,744 planes, 5,607 helicopters and 578 UAVs. (Correll, John (2004). The Air Force in the Vietnam War(PDF). The Air Force Association. p. 26.)
I hate it when I do that.Whoa, Elvis, you've got your chronology a little mixed up, and you're leaving out a couple players. First of all, S3s were ASW, not surveillance, and they never made the scene til after it was over. The all weather attack community (A6) was very much present, even on the 27 charlies, and Forrestal class and up housed RA5C photorecon birds as well. By the time I went in (1970), the A4 was being phased out as a front line attacker in favor of the A7 (the F8's descendant). Talk about a logistical nightmare; the A4 was a simple stick-and-rudder bird, while the A7 was a gee-whiz machine, full of gadgets and gewgaws. Now as for surveillance, I think you meant to refer to the E2, the "Hummer", so named for the sound of its T56 turboprops. Big deck carriers had to find room for a couple of these as well. And last, but not least, we mustn't forget the helo detachment, usually 3 or 4 SH3s to provide plane guard, SAR, and very occasionally, sonar dunking duties.
Any volunteers for Enterprise's supply department? Anybody? I can't hear you!
Cheers,
Wes
Actually, IIRC, that occurred prior to heavy engagement in Vietnam, when ACM was still considered obsolete and all-electronic BVR combat was the wave of the future.Actually IIRC there was a fly off between the F-8 and F-4 that ultimately set the F-4 to be the fleet's primary fighter, although it did have a very effective multi-mission capability.
When you find yourself inverted 1200 feet over downtown Key West with a first flight rider onboard, it kinda gets your attention. "WTF? WHERE'D THAT COME FROM? Must be that Stoof up ahead, he's the only other plane in the sky. BUT WE'RE FOUR MILES IN TRAIL! WTF??" I got reprimanded by the control tower at Key West International for unauthorized low level acrobatics in the control zone, and had to explain to the FAA and the Navy.You flew behind one?
Those were the Navy ELINT birds, who operated under radio silence. For the Air Force AWACS planes, call sign: Hillsborough, their job was air traffic control and fighter direction. Their handicap was that from south of DMZ, their coverage of the north was limited. That's why the clandestine Lima radar sites were set up in Laos. Red Crown on Yankee Station didn't reach much beyond Thud ridge.Yeah, but in many cases they were able to track aircraft, and some were listening in on radio transmissions. Various regulations prohibited them from relaying the position of enemy aircraft
But your comments on the F4's versatility and it's multi role effects on succeeding designs are right on target.I hate it when I do that.
Thanks, and yes, you're right.
Thanks for filling in the details. NASA beats Navy. Cool!Regarding the fly off between the XF8U-3 and F-4, that F-8 was a totally different jet than the F8U-1 and F8U-2N used in Vietnam.