The Greatest Fighter Pilot in WW II???

[lesofprimus]

I know look at the times on our posts....

not according to the stats

Ummmm... I got the stats from Luftwaffe.cz on Barkhorn...... In 2 months he shot down more fighters that Johnsons whole career.....

Where did u get ur stats?????

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

there not so much stats but several stories/mentions of him say that as all his 38 kills were against single engined fighters he was the highest scoring ace of the war............

 

[cheddar cheese]

Yeah but others like Hartmann, Marsielle, Barr and even other allied aces had shot down more single engine aircraft

not according to the stats, anywho, i've got some logs to shift and some new British Mk.4 assult boots to try out, see you soon......

Just cos 100% kills were on single engined aircraft, it doesnt mean he shot the most single engined planes down. If some guy only got one kill, and it was a single engined plane, that also makes him have 100% of his kills on a single engined plane. Does that make him the best pilot in that area? No. The highest ratio of shooting down single engined planes maybe, but not highest number.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i said i realise he wasn't the highest scoring..................

 

[cheddar cheese]

No you didnt...

Josef Priller (Pips' fave!) was also pretty good. Higest Spit killer of the war, shot down 68 (I think it was 68)

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i know he doesn't have the highest number of kills, not by a long shot

yes i did..............

 

[cheddar cheese]

I dont mean that, I mean you said he had the highest number of single engine fighter kills.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

every source i've read about him says he did have.............

 

[cheddar cheese]

But he didnt. Josef Priller shot down about 68 Spitfires, which is more than 38.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yeah but none of the sources mentioned that

 

[cheddar cheese]

8)

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

don't use that tone of smiley with me.............

 

[cheddar cheese]

But Im revelling in the feeling of having proved you wrong

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hartmann for example you know he shot down more than 38 fighters. I am going to do a search for that and find out.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Talking to Pips has made me like Pips more

Heres a screenshot for IL2 FB I done for her earlier...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

While searching for more stats on Hartmann I have found some other interesting websites, here is the top Luftwaffe aces:

Top German Aces Kills Comments Medal Unit East West Plane
Erich Hartmann 352 First kill Nov. 1942 KCOSD JG 52 352 - Bf 109
Gerhard Barkhorn 301 120 sorties w/o a kill KCOS JG 52, 6, JV 44 301 - Bf 109
Günther Rall 275 two long injury layoffs KCOS JG 52, 11, 300 272 3 Bf 109
Otto Kittel 267 583 sorties, KIA Feb '45 KCOS JG 54 267 - Fw 190
Walter Nowotny 258 Austrian, KIA Nov '44 KCOSD JG 54, Kdo. Nov. 255 3 Fw 190
Wilhelm Batz 237 - KCOS JG 52 232 5 Bf 109
Erich Rudorffer 222 1000+ sorties, downed
16 times, 12 Me 262 kills KCOS JG 2, 54, 7 136 86 Fw 190
Heinz Bär 220 16 in Me 262, downed 18 times KCOS various 96 124 various
Hermann Graf 211 830+ sorties KCOSD various 201 10 Fw 190
Heinrich Ehler 209 - KCO JG, 5, 7 209 - Bf 109
Theodore Weissenburger 208 500+ sorties,
8 kills with Me 262 KCO JG 77, 5, 7 175 33 Bf 109
Hans Philipp 206 shot down by Robert S. Johnson KCOS JG 76, 54, 1 177 29 Fw 190
Walter Schuck 206 - KCO JG 5, 7 198 8 Bf 109
Anton Hafner 204 - KCO JG 51 184 20 -
Helmut Lipfert 203 - KCO JG 52, 53 199 4 Bf 109
Walter Krupinksi 197 - KCO JG 52 177 20 Bf 109
Anton Hackl 192 - KCOS JG 77 130 62 Bf 109
Joachim Brendel 189 - KCO JG 51 189 - Fw 190
Max Stotz 189 - KCO JG 54 173 16 Fw 190
Joachim Kirschner 188 - KCO JG 3 167 21 Bf 109
Kurt Brändle 180 - KCO JG 53, 3 160 20 Bf 109
Gunther Josten 178 - KCO JG 51 178 - -
Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff 176 - KCOS JG 52 148 28 Bf 109
Günther Schack 174 - KCO JG 51 174 - -
Heinz Schmidt 173 - KCO JG 52 173 - Bf 109
Emil "Bully" Lang 173 18 in one day KCO JG 54 148 25 Fw 190
Adolph Galland 104 - KCOSD JG.26, JG.27, JV.44 - 104 Bf 109, Me 262
Knights Cross (KC) with Oak Leaves (O), Swords (S), and Diamonds (D)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The highest scoring ace of all time was the great German Luftwaffe experte Erich Hartmann with 352 aerial kills. Flying Bf 109s (Me-109s) against the overmatched Soviet MiGs and Yaks for almost three years, he accumulated his unrivalled score. Hartmann claimed, that of all his accomplishments, he was proudest of the fact that he never lost a wingman. He is also reputed to have said. "Get close .. when he fills the entire windscreen ... then you can't possibly miss."

Hartmann was born in 1922, in Weissach, Wurttemberg. At age 19 (1941), he joined the Luftwaffe and was posted to Jagdgeschwader 52 (JG 52) on the Eastern Front in October, 1942. He scored his first kill in November, and only achieved his second three months later. In the first half of 1943, he worked out some of the tactics which would prove so successful later on. If he was attacked from behind, he would send his wingman down low and out in front. Then he would get behind the enemy and fire a short, quick accurate burst, waiting "until the enemy aircraft filled the windscreen." He would normally content himself with one victory; he was willing to wait for another day. His natural talents began to tell: excellent eyesight, lightning reflexes, an aggressive spirit, and an ability to stay cool while in combat.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

An outstanding pilot, he was appointed Squadron Commander of Fighter Group 53 in 1944. Flying an ME 109, he achieved 352 kills during the Second World War. In 30 months of fighting he flew 1,425 combat missions and was shot down sixteen times but was never wounded. Apart from six American planes shot down over the Romanian oilfields - including five Mustangs in one day - all his kills were Soviet aircraft. He was decorated with the Germany's absolutely highest military honour - the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.

I am having a hard timing finding a summary of his kills. Will have to post that later when I find it.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Nice 8)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I believe someone in here also posted something about how they read that Luftwaffe pilots were awarded 4 kills for killing a bomber or something like that. As I had said before that was false. They were awarded one kill for one kill, however they were awarded points that would go for recieving awards such as the knights cross. Here was I read at the website that I think they got that from and misinterpreted:

The major difference between the German and Western Allies' method of scoring victories was that the Germans were not allowed to share a victory. Their cardinal rule was: "One pilot-one kill." In contrast Allied pilots were allowed to share victories. If two pilots fired at an enemy and it went down, each Allied pilot received one-half of the kill. Carried to absurdity, it is conceivable that an Allied pilot could become an ace with ten or more half-victories, never scoring any victories of his own! The Luftwaffe system of awarding victories was impartial, inflexible, and far less prone to error than the American or British method. That is not to say that errors were not made, history shows that both sides during the "Battle of Britain" tended to overclaim victories on a scale of 2:1.

The German's recorded victories in one of three categories: Abschuss (Destroyed), Herausschuss (Seperation), and endgueltige Vernichtung (Final Destruction.) These three categories were used for assessing "points" towards awards. Only an enemy aircraft in an Abschuss was counted towards the pilot's overall victory tally. A pilot that brought down and enemy plane with a Endgueltige Vernichtung or Final Destruction of a damaged aircraft was not awarded credit for the "kill", however he did earn "points" for the aircraft's destruction.



Luftwaffe Points Scoring System Aircraft-type:
Abschuss
(Destroyed)
Herausschuss
(Seperation)
Endgueltige Vernichtung
(Final Destruction)


Single-engined fighter
1
0
0

Twin-engined bomber
2
1
1/2

Four-engined bomber
3
2
1



The system recognized the fact that achieving a Herausschuss, that is, damaging a bomber enough to force it from its combat box, or "pulk" (as the Germans called it), was a more difficult task than the final destruction of a damaged straggler. The emphasis of the German fighter arm, the Jagdwaffe, was that of intercepting the Allied bombers. Dogfighting with Allied fighters was to be avoided if possible in favor of attacking the bomber stream when one was present. Decorations were awarded after the following point totals had been reached:



German Awards System Iron Cross Second Class
1

Iron Cross First Class
3

Honor Cup
10

German Cross
20

Knight's Cross
40



The point system existed for the purpose of award qualification only. "Victory claims" and "points" were two distinct statistics. The requirements for the verification of victory claims remained unchanged; only the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) could confirm a claim, and this proceedure could take more than a year. The practice of claiming "Herausschuss" (seperations) died out in 1944 and many "seperation" claims were eventually awarded as "victories"; occassionally claims by other pilots were allowed for the "final destruction" of the same aircraft. This system led to a claims duplication by a factor of as much as two.