The Greatest Fighter Pilot in WW II???

[remoraptor]

The bottom line for me is Erich Hartmann took out seven USAAF Mustangs.

Some folks say that the quality of Soviet aircraft and pilots was a main factor for the high scores achieved by the Luftwaffe aces in the East. This might have been true in the early part of the war in Russia but by the time Hartmann started making his reputation the Russians already had first-rate fighters and were receiving lend-lease material from the British and the USA.

If the quality of the opposition was a factor for the Germans' high scores then it would also be true for the Allies'. This is especially true for the RAF and USAAF pilots in the closing stages of the European war were many German pilots were hastily trained to fill the vacuum of accumulated casualties; and in the later part of the Pacific War were the Japanese finally decided to make use of their half-trained pilots as kamikaze so that at least they could do some damage before they were lost.

 

[lesofprimus]

the Russians already had first-rate fighters and were receiving lend-lease material from the British and the USA.

Are u actually calling a P-39 Aircobra a first-rate fighter???

Erich Hartmann shot down many, MANY inferior aircraft... And most of them were 17 and 18 year olds with 2 hours of cockpit time....

While his # of kills are amazing, as well as the rest of his squadron, his quality of opposition just does not stack up for me.... If he flew in the West, he woulda been swimmin in the Channel, or runnin through the Hedgerows.... British and American opposition was ALOT stiffer than the weak-ass Russians....

 

[Nonskimmer]

British and American opposition was ALOT stiffer than the weak-ass Russians....

Canadian! Don't forget Canadian!

Yeah, yeah I know. "British, Canadian, Australian: what's the difference?"
God, didn't my grandfather hate that! I thought he was gonna snap, just tellin' me about it!
'Course, nine times out of ten they were lumped in with the Brits anyway and about the only difference in the uniform was the word 'CANADA' across the shoulder, but I weren't about to get into it with him!

 

[remoraptor]

I don't think the russians were "weak assed". They had guys who were as good or even better than German and Allied pilots alike. Hell they had women pilots for aces too. And what about that guy who strangled his German opponent to death after shooting him down and hunting him on foot?

Also, I would rate Saburo Sakai within the top ten. Its not easy for a pilot to fly home wounded blind and to shoot down a B-29 with only one eye among other things.

 

[lesofprimus]

They had guys who were as good or even better than German and Allied pilots alike.

Men like Kozhedub (62 Kills) and Pokryshkin (59) and Gulayev (57) and Rechkalov (56) and Yevstigneyev (53).....

The talent and skill these fellows posessed was for but a select few..... The Germans in the Air and on the Ground were devastating to the Soviet Airforce... Bodies were hastily trained and thrust into combat.... Training was to the point and abrupt...

Many young boys died in Pe-2's and Yak-3's and P-39's.... A whole city of 30,000.... Gone....

 

[Karaya_1]

If it was so easy for Hartmann to reach over 300 kills from 1943 to 1945 over "weak and unexperienced" Russian pilots and planes (an allied rumor !), why is there no allied pilot, who reached 100 (or at least 50) kills over weak and unexperienced German pilots and planes from 1944 to 1945 ????? And don't tell the old story of going home after 25 missions, they stayed much longer in Europe !!!

 

[Nonskimmer]

Yep. Russian training was shit, for the most part. That's no testament to the heart of a lot of the young pilots, but they were poorly prepared for combat. Pure and simple.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No I really dont think they did try and do that. Maybe at first during the few years after the war. But all aviators have a bond that gives them mutual respect for each other. And the times have changed. For the most part soldiers from either sides do not have any hatred for each other. Again I said for the most part. Soldiers no matter what you do, infantry, pilot, artillery, anything understand that you do what you do for country because it was a soldier does. Even if the soldier does not believe in the polotics of things. Anyhow I do not see much of this.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes but at the same time most German pilots later in the war did not recieve much better training than the Russians. Hartmann for example was a terrible pilot at first, his fellow aviators did not want him as a wingman. It took him over 40 sorties to start showing the brilliance that made him a good pilot. Here is a brief history of Hartmann and how he began his rise to the top:

Erich Hartmann arrived as a Leutnant to 7./JG 52 in the Caucasus on 10 October 1942.Ofw. Alfred Grislawski, the veteran who was assigned to teach the novice Leutnant the realities of the air war, found Hartmann to be a talented by highly individualistic pilot. Hartmann was intended to achieve a large number of victories, and he displayed a most unhealthy contempt toward his Soviet adversaries. Grislawski, who knew better after serving on the Eastern Front for more than one year, told Hartmann straight forward that unless he changed attitude, he would be a corpse in a matter of weeks.

Erich Hartmann's first acquaintance with the Soviet airmen also told him not to underestimate them; his Bf 109 was shot up, and he was lucky to survive a belly-landing. It took the veterans of 7./JG 52--most notably Alfred Grislawski and Edmund Rossmann much hard work to teach the young Hartmann the name of the game. It was during this time that Grislawski invented the nick-name for Hartmann - "Bubi", "Little Boy."

Hartmann achieved his first aerial victory against an Il-2 of Soviet 7 GShAP on 5 November 1942, but he got himself shot down on that occasion. When he returned to base, he was punished with three days of ground service work for violating the rules as a wingman. During the following weeks, Hartmann was involved in a large number of air combats. Over and over again, he thought he had the Soviet planes in his gunsight and opened fire--only to see his tracer bullets pass by in empty sky. It was not until on his 41st combat sortie, on 27 January 1943, that Hartmann managed to down a second Soviet aircraft - reported as a "MiG-1", in reality probably a misidentification for a Yak-1 or Yak-7. Grislawski repeatedly told Hartmann to approach the enemy aircraft much closer before opening fire, but this tactic took much nerves, and that was something "Bubi" Hartmann had to learn the hard way.

In March 1943, when Oblt. Walter "Graf Punski" Krupinski arrived to assume command of 7./JG 52, things got even worse to "Bubi" Hartmann. Krupinski was a totally "wild man" in the sky, and he picked Hartmann as his wingman - because all the NCO veterans refused to serve as his wingman. Krupinski never avoided any air combat, and on repeated occasions, he led Hartmann against Soviet aircraft formations from a terribly disadvantageous position. The story behind Krupinski was that he had served under Hptm. Johannes Steinhoff's harsh command in 1941, and Steinhoff had threatened to shift Krupinski to a reconnaissance unit if he didn't shape up as a fighter pilot. Krupinski was a notoriously bad gunner, and he made up for that by attacking the enemy on every possible occasion. It was sheer luck that he managed to survive the war. Flying together with Krupinski meant air combat on almost every mission, and slowly Hartmann's victory tally began to rise. But both Hartmann and Krupinski got themselves shot down several times. This was during the air battle over Kuban - the northwestern corner of the Caucasus where the Germans had been squeezed by the Red Army during the winter of 1942/1943 - and the Soviet aviation opposed to JG 52 in this sector counted some of the best Soviet aces at that time. Notable are Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Grigoriy Rechkalov, and the Glinka brothers. JG 52's Helmut Lipfert later wrote the following words about the air battle over Kuban:

"Things did not go well. (.) There were few contacts with the enemy but many losses. And it was not just the beginners and young pilots who failed to return, but some of the old hands as well."

On 25 May 1943, when Hartmann was downed for the fifth time - this time when he was rammed by or collided with a LaGG-3 - he suffered a nervous breakdown, and was sent back to Germany to rest. Back home his father told him that he was convinced that Germany had no chance to win the war. Hartmann returned to the Eastern Front in June 1943 determined to prove that his father was wrong.

It was now that Hartmann's rise to success started. He had learned the lessons that he had been taught by Grislawski and Rossmann, and after 180 combat missions was able to master the Bf 109 magnificently. The Soviet novice pilots, who still suffered from shortened training schemes, stood no chance at all against Erich Hartmann. This was proved on the first day of the German Panzer attack at Kursk, on 5 July 1943. Erich Hartmann participated in four missions, and returned from each with a victory. Two days later, he bagged seven in four different engagements. On the last day of July, Hartmann's victory tally had reached 41.

The next three weeks, Erich Hartmann's name would become famous throughout and beyond JG 52. Between 1 and 20 August 1943, he carried out 54 combat sorties and shot down 49 Soviet aircraft. This remarkable victory row ended on August 20, when he was downed himself twice. On the second occasion, he went down in Soviet-held territory, and was captured, but managed to escape and made it back to his own lines.

On 2 September 1943, he was appointed Staffelkapitän of the famous 9. Karayastaffel/JG 52. Engaging a formation of La-5s and Airacobras on 20 September 1943, Hartmann achieved his 100th and 101st victories. But by that time, no less than fifty other German fighter pilots had already reached that total, and it was no longer even sufficient to be awarded with the Knight's Cross.

Erich Hartmann continued to shoot down Soviet aircraft--mainly La-5 and Airacobra fighters--at an amazing pace. He claimed three victories on 25 September, three on the 26th, two next day, a La-5 on 28 September, two fighters on the 29th, and three on the last day of September 1943. By that time his victory total stood at 115, achieved on 333 combat sorties.

The sudden steep rise in "Bubi" Hartmann's success rate created suspicion among several other fighter pilots. One of them was Lt. Fritz Obleser, a twenty-year-old Austrian who had joined JG 52 a couple of months after Hartmann. Obleser also had achieved a large number of victories, and he found it hard to believe that another relative newcomer could rise to such level in such a short space of time. So Obleser asked the Gruppenkommandeur if he was allowed to fly a mission with Hartmann, and he received permission to do so. Hartmann and Obleser took off from Novo-Zaporozhye at 1200 hours on 1 October 1943. As they returned fifty-five minutes later, Obleser admitted that his earlier suspicions toward Hartmann had been unfounded; he had personally witnessed how Hartmann had blown two La-5s out of the sky in a matter of minutes.

On 29 October 1943, Hartmann achieved his 148th confirmed victory against an Airacobra. Now he was finally awarded with the Knight's Cross, and was also given one month's badly needed home leave. After his return to his unit, Hartmann scored his 150th kill on 13 December 1943.

On 6 January 1944, Soviet armored forces with powerful air support attempted to break through the German lines to seize the forward airbase Malaya-Viska, where III./JG 52 was based. The Soviets managed to destroy nine Bf 109s, but failed to complete their task. While Stukas and ground-attack aircraft attacked the Soviet ground troops, the Bf 109 pilots fought against the Soviet air support. Fourteen Soviet planes were shot down in three days, including three Airacobras by Hartmann on 8 January-his victories Nos. 163 - 165.

On 26 February 1944, Erich Hartmann engaged Soviet fighter formations in three separate missions and claimed ten Airacobras shot down-including his 200th total victory at 1440 hrs, his 201st at 1445 hrs, and his 202d at 1450 hrs. Erich Hartmann's importance is displayed by the fact that 40 of the 76 Soviet aircraft that were claimed by III./JG 52 between 8 January and 28 February 1944 were shot down by him alone. For this, he was awarded with the Oak Leaves on 2 March 1944.

But while Hartmann met Hitler in East Prussia to receive his award, the pilots of JG 52 felt the increasing pressure from a steadily improved Soviet Air Force. III. Gruppe alone registered 24 losses through March 1944, and on 1 April 1944, the famous commander of II./JG 52, 250-victory ace Hauptmann Gerhard Barkhorn, was shot down by a Soviet fighter. Returning to his unit, Hartmann experienced the disheartening defeat in the Crimea, culminating with the humiliating evacuation of Sevastopol in early May 1944. However, despite mounting difficulties, Erich Hartmann was able to achieve a total of 172 victories in 1944 alone - including Nos. 250 on 4 June and Nos. 291 - 301 on 24 August.

The question may be risen whether these enormous claims are to be taken seriously. It is extremely difficult to check every single claim made by Erich Hartmann against Soviet loss statistics. But it is a fact that the German fighters claimed a total of 8,501 Soviet aircraft shot down in 1944, while Soviet loss statistics show that 10,400 Soviet aircraft were lost in combat during the same year.

Erich Hartmann survived the war with 352 confirmed victories, a higher total than any other fighter pilot in history. These victories were attained on 1,404 combat sorties, resulting in 825 aerial combats. Of his 352 victories, 260 were achieved against fighters - and seven against U.S. Fifteenth Air Force Mustangs.

After the war, Erich Hartmann spent ten years in Soviet captivity. He then served in the Bundesluftwaffe for some time. He passed away on 19 September 1993.

 

[remoraptor]

It's quite sad to find out that these WW2 generation of aces are quietly passing away. They're quite a contrast to the peacetime heroes that we have today: football, basketball, politicians... But I think people won't completely forget about them.
Do any of you guys know of any websites providing info on what these aces did after the war and retirement?

 

[lesofprimus]

Just about every bio and website has the follow-on info..... Do a search for the pilot and youll find them....

 

[Lightning Guy]

There were several reasons the Allied pilots didn't score as high. They didn't fly as many missions. They didn't see as many targets. And there were alot of Allied planes trying to shoot down a few Germans. Pretty hard to break the century mark given those facts.

 

[evangilder]

Remo, one place that I have looked at some of them is
http://www.acepilots.com

They have some good stuff there.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There are many websites, just do a search for the names or just for WW2 aces in general and you should be able to find them.

 

[Udet]

Lightning Guy, HELLO!!!

With all due respect, it comes into my mind to say your comments are not accurate.

You say allied pilots did not score as high as so many Luftwaffe pilots did because they did not fly that many missions.

This is incorrect.

You will see, and I have plentiful and fluent evidence the allies (especially the USA and former USSR) have lied big time when narrating world war two.

That includes a campaign to minimize and even ridiculize the German war effort.

The Luftwaffe experten have not walked away unscathed from the allied defaming campaign.

"German pilots shot down so many planes because they had no limit in the number of missions to be flown. They flew either until the war would end or until getting killed."

That is one the main assets the allies utilize to minimize the German aces.

While such assertion by itself, all isolated, is correct it can certainly lead to incorrect conclusions. Yes, they had no limit in number of missions to be flown, while the USAAF crews had rotation system: fly a determined number of missions and (obviously) if you survive you go home and let the new meat see action.

What was the fundamental downfall of the Bf109? Its very short range.

What was the fundamental (strategic) advantage of the P-51? Its extremely long range.

The Bf109G-6, one of the most produced version of the G series, had a maximun range of about 550 km -with internal fuel load only-. That meant it could stay in the air for about 1 1/2 hour. In many cases the 109´s were fitted with a 300 lts drop tank which increased their range for nearly 50%, that is for nearly 1000 km.

The P-51 equipped with 2 drop tanks had a range reaching some 2,700 kilometers, with a flying endurance of nearl 8 1/2 hours!

So a pilot of the USAAF flying some 150 missions could have been in the air for about 1,200 hours. While a Bf109 G pilot, say, flying 700 missions could have been in the air for abut 1,050 hours.

With this I am trying to say there were many many USAAF pilots who indeed were in the air on combat mission more time than many many German pilots who flew far more missions.

Number of missions flown tells something, but not everything on a fighter pilot record.

Hours effectively flown in missions is a far more illustrative game.

I am aware the accurate number of hours any given pilot spent in the air is impossible to determine (there are cases when the exact number of missions flown for some pilots is unknown!); some missions could last less time than others, and there could be times when the pilot did not resort to use the full endurance of his plane during some missions.

Still, we can come close to telling how many hours a man spent in the air.

There are thousands of USAAF pilots who spent in the air more time than Pips Priller, Waldemar Radener and Willi Batz, just to mention three of them, and shot down many many times less enemy planes.

So as you might see, most arguments deployed by the USA to minimize the Luftwaffe pilots are easy to shatter.

Cheers!

 

[Udet]

I forgot to add:

The things I did comment in the last post, implied that one sole mission flown by a P-51 pilot could equal in many cases 4 or 5 missions flown by a German pilot when flying one sole mission.

 

[evangilder]

I don't think anyone here is trying to minimize the Luftwaffe pilots. But remember that the missions of the fighters on the allied side versus the German side was slightly different, especially later in the war. For the allies, the were on the offense, and in some cases, never saw an enemy fighter. For the Germans, it was defense, and they were going after the aircraft that were entering their airspace. A luftwaffe fighter group going after a large formation of bombers and their fighter escorts had a much larger target base as well.

There are definitely differences in the way that it was fought and to qualify or quantify kill totals is not an exact science.

 

[Udet]

I did not mean the guys in this forum are trying to minimize the Luftwaffe.

I was rather referring to USA historians and veterans of the war.

 

[lesofprimus]

Evan brings up some good points... Besides the BoB, Germany was mainly attempting to stop the bombing of their country..... More targets of opportunity.... Except on excorting duties, Allied pilots didnt fly their max ranges or stay aloft for their entire avilable flight hours....

Ive never seen where historians were trying to undermine the Luftwaffes airwar efforts.....

Hours effectively flown in missions is a far more illustrative game.

I see what ur trying to say, but if your assigned sector doesnt have any enemy flight activity, u could stay aloft for 6 hours and see nothing but white puffy clouds....

The Germans rarely had to look for enemy air action.. The Allies granted them that request.....

 

[Udet]

Sorry but your statements do not make any substantial change to the fact P-51 pilots completing their combat mission period in Europe flew more time than most German pilots who flew far more combat missions.

It would not surprise me at all, there were USAAF fighter pilots who spent in the air even more time than German aces known for their massive number of missions flown, such as Gerhard Barkhorn who achieved some 1,100 missions, all in Bf109s.

I digress: that is one of the main assets of allied historians and veterans to explain why German aces scored as high as they did. And as you can see, such argument when put into broad perspective -and not isolated as them USAers do- lacks both head and feet.

Mind you Primis: the Luftwaffe of course looked forward to see action against the large formations of the USAAF. I would not call it a concession granted by the USAAF. During 1944, before the first airfields were established on the continent, thousands of P-51s flew the whole bombing run England-Central Germany-England, and indeed saw plenty of action against German interceptors, and many of them got killed in action. Many times such missions enabled huge swarms of Mustangs for free hunting missions over Germany.