The Greatest Fighter Pilot in WW II???

[Stallion_51]

Great discussion going on. It appears our boys didn't come close to Hartmann but that guy was out of this world...kind of the Sean D. Tucker of dogfighters.

How about Preddy and Landers? Landers was an ace in both the Pacific and European theatres. (Yes, there's a little bias here.)

 

[lesofprimus]

And the Germans were sitting at the aerodromes..... Kinda pointless to send up 25 fighters to engage a swarm of Mustangs...

In 1944, the Luftwaffe was fighting a losing battle... Most of the higher ups, including Galland knew this....

Hartmann scored as much as he did because the Soviets had inferior aircraft, inferior pilots and inferior training.... And he was a great pilot..... Flying a great machine.... There was a never ending supply of aircraft for hime to shoot down....

My Grandfather did a whole tour with VMF-122 and never had an enemy Jap plane in his sights... Many Allied pilots did the same...... They were just not in the right place for enemy action....

Being stationed on the Eastern Front definatly gave u the opportunity to see some action, let alone the opportunity to die...

 

[Nonskimmer]

And there is a lot of validity to the fact that allied pilots generally flew for a set tour of combat, where as the Luftwaffe boys and the Japanese were usually in it for the duration.
Some folks try to discount this when comparing kill tallies relative to one's skill, or what have you, but think about it. Of course it had an impact!
How many more of the enemy would the Richard Bongs of the USAAF have shot down if they never left the combat zone, and/or if America had been in the war from the start?

 

[Udet]

Hello over there beauties:

Primus:

On what grounds do you base your argument that by 1944 the Luftwaffe was fighting a lost battle?

At the very beginning of 1944, that is, January, the air battle over Europe was still far from being decided. 1943 helped the allies discovering the Luftwaffe was a very fearsome enemy to tangle with.

1944 can certainly be considered the decisive year of the allied victory in the air, but it took so many months of very bloody battles, where both the USAAF and RAF took frightful losses.

So it is not correct to say, in my view, that by 1944 the Luftwaffe was fighting an already lost battle. It would be more appropriate to say, that by late 1944 the battle was lost.

On January 11th, 1944, the USAAF lost about 80-90 heavy bombers. That means on one single day the 8th AF saw some 800-900 men not returning for dinner; while for the Luftwaffe fighter force the number of KIA pilots was about 35-40.
So nearly 900 men (from heavy bombers only) on one day in exchange for some 35-40 pilots killed, seems like more than a feasible exhange ratio for the first days of 1944.

For the RAF things did not fare significantly better at all in early 1944. There was a night of February where the NJG´s destroyed more than 70 RAF heavy bombers as well.

However, here we will have to sing the same song: in the long term Germany could not afford its casualty rates while the RAF and especially the USAAF had not that much problem in bringing on the new crews; still that should not get you confused in saying the casualties of both the RAF and the USAAF were "moderate".

 

[lesofprimus]

I said:

In 1944, the Luftwaffe was fighting a losing battle

U said:

that by 1944 the Luftwaffe was fighting an already lost battle

U said:

that by late 1944 the battle was lost.

I never said fighting a lost battle.... I said they were fighting a losing battle..... I am basing that argument on what the people on the German side of the War had to say about it..... Galland stated this... Nowotney said this... Even Goering admitted it to Hitler in 1944......

 

[remoraptor]

There was this encounter early on in Saburo Sakai's career in China were he and his buddies ganged up on an obsolete Chinese plane and he remarked how skillful their prey was in outmaneuvering them considering that they had him boxed up at low altitude with their highly modern zeros. You could actually detect a tone of shame in their performance in his narration of the encounter. Later on, Sakai would perform the same kind of skill on a bunch of Hellcats in Iwo Jima, outmaneuvering and outwitting them in every turn till they gave up.
What I'm trying to point out is that if the axis aces had one advantage over their Allied counterparts it was time. Time to mature, to train, gain actual combat experience, refine procedures, and establish esprit de corps before WW2 actually started. Take the Battle of Britain for example, the Brits stood toe to toe with the Germans, never lacking in courage and skill. But what the Germans had was tactical maturity, knowing how to bait the enemy, employing the finger-four, etc. The Brits actually had to adopt German tactics in the middle of the battle.
This kind of advantage carried on for a core group (a shrinking core group) of veteran Axis pilots through the War. You can actually compare this situation with the USAAF pilots in the Korean War: What they had acquired in WW2 carried through the next conflict and enabled them to consistently outfight their Communist counterparts. After his release as a POW, working closely with the USAAF, Erich Hartmann himself remarked how the modern USAAF had the same kind of attitude and esprit de corps the Jagdwaffe had during WW2.

 

[lesofprimus]

Good points....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to agree with most of comments made. I too believe that the reason the Luftwaffe pilots achieved so many more kills was the fact that they were on the defensive most of the time, which gave them so many more targets to shootdown. However also not to take away from Allied pilots there were many of them far to many to actually mention that were great pilots just as good as the Luftwaffe great pilots, but the Luftwaffe had a great number of Pilots that were just superb and very talented. Also though the argument that Luftwaffe pilots achieved so many more victories than allied pilots because they had been fighting for a longer time than the allied pilots is also inacurate, look at Moulders he scored his 100th victory on July 15, 1941, long before the US even entered the war. Erich Hartmann achieved most of his kills in 1944 after only a year of combat flying.

Top Ace of World War II - Major Erich Hartmann; 352 victories

Top Night Fighter Ace of World War II - Major Heinz Schnaufer; 121 victories

Top German Ace of the Spanish Civil War (1937-1939) - Lt. Werner Moelders; 14 victories

First German Ace of World War II - Major Hannes Gentzen

First Ace to exceed Baron Manfred von Richthofen score of 80 - Capt. Werner Moelders

First to score 100 victories - Major Werner Moelders; July 15, 1941

First to score 150 victories - Major Gordon Gollob; August 29, 1942

First to score 200 victories - Capt. Hermann Graf; October 2, 1942

First to score 250 victories - Major Walter Notowny; October 14, 1943

First to score 300 victories - Capt. Erich Hartmann; August 24 1944

First to score 350 victories - Major Erich Hartmann; April 4, 1945

Most kills scored in a single day - Major Emil Lang; 18 victories

Most kills in a single mission (sortie) - Major Erich Rudorffer; Nov. 13, 1943, 13 victories

Most kills socred on the Western Front - Capt. Hans-Joachim Marseilles; 158 victories

Most kills scored on the Russian Front - Major Erich Hartmann; 352 victories

Best kill average per sorti flown (day fighters) - Lt. Guenther Scheel, 70 missions/71 victories

Top fighter ace for number of four engine aircraft shot down (day fighters) - Lt. Herbert Rollwage; 102 victories (44 of the four-motor bombers)

Top four-engine killer (night fighters) - Major Heinz Schnaufer; 121 victories (mostly four-engine bombers)

Top Jet Ace of World War II (Me-262) - Major Heinz Baer; 16 victories.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Here is a list of the aces from WW2. I am not sure if it is complete but its a good list to start. Actually I know it is not complete because they did not list all of the aces with as little as 5 kills or more.

a + sign near an ace's name marks 'Killed In Action'

Belgian aces
Name Kills

Yvan Georges du Monceau de Bergandel 8
Charles Detal+ 7
Jean Offenberg+ 7
Victor Ortmanns 7
Jacques Philipart+ 7
Remy Van Lallemant 6
Daniel Le Roy du Vivier 6
Andre Plisnier 6
Lucien Boussa 5

Bulgarian aces
Name Kills

Cudomir Toplodolski 8
Marin Cvetkov+ 8
Stojan Stojanov 6

Chinese aces
Name Kills

Li Kwei-Tan 12
Liu Tsui-Kan 11
Lo Chu 11
Chen Jui-tien 6
Chow Ting-fong 6
Huang Shing-Yui 6
Kwang Hsin-Jui 6
Liu Chung-Wu 6
Chu Chin-hsun 5
Hwang Pei-yang 5

Croatian aces
Name Kills

Mato Dukovac 40
Cvitan Galic+ 38
Dragutin Ivanic 18
Ivan Jergovic 16
Ljudevit Bencetic 16
Stjepan Boskic 13
Franjo Dzal 13
Zlatko Stipcic+ 12
Josip Hellebrant 12

Czech aces
Name Kills

Karel Kuttelwascher 18
Josef Frantisek+ 17
Otto Smik+ 10
Miloslav Mansfeld 9
Alois Vasatko+ 7
Frantisek Peøina 7
Leopold srom 6
Otmar Kuèera 6
Stanislav Fejfar+ 6
Josef Stehlík 5
Josef Dygrýn-Ligotick+ 5
Ladislav Bobek 5
Bohumil Furst 5
Jiøí Kuèera 5

Danish aces
Name Kills

Kaj Birksted 11

Finnish aces
Name Kills

Eino Juutilainen 94
Hans Wind 78
Eino Luukkanen 56
Urho Lehtovaara 44
Oiva Tuominen 44
Risto Puhakka 42
Olavi Puro 36
Nils Katajainen 35
Lauri Nissinen+ 32
Kyosti Karhila 32

French aces
Name Kills

Pierre Closterman 33
Marcel Albert 23
Jean Demozay-Morlaix+ 19
Pierre Le Gloan+ 18
Louis Delfino 16
Edmond Marin la Meslee+ 16
Jacques Andre 16
Roland De La Poype 16
Albert Littolff+ 15
Michel Dorance 14

German aces
Note: **** marks an ace awarded the Knights Cross with oak leaves swords and diamonds medal (click to read the essay). Only 27 men of all german military branches and ranks were awarded this very high medal during the entire war.


Name Kills

Erich Hartmann **** (click to read his biography) 352
Gerhard Barkhorn 301
Gunther Rall 275
Otto Kittel+ 267
Walter Nowotny+ **** 258
Wilhlem Batz 237
Erich Rudorffer 224
Heinz Bar 221
Hermann Graf **** 212
Heinrich Ehrler+ 208
Theodor Weissenberger 208
Hans Philipp+ 206
Walter Schuck 206
Anton Hafner 204
Helmut Lipfert 203
Walter Krupinski 197
Anton Hackl 192
Joachim Brendel 189
Max Stotz+ 189
Joachim Kirschner+ 188
Kurt Brandle 180
Gunther Josten 178
Johannes Steinhoff 178
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174
Gunther Schack 174
Emil Lang+ 173
Heinz Schmidt+ 173
Horst Ademeit+ 166
Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke+ 162
Hans Joachim Marseille+ **** (click to read his biography) 158
Heinrich Sturm+ 158
Gerhard Thyben 157
Hans Beisswenger+ 152
Peter Duttmann 152
Gordon Gollob **** 150
Fritz Tegtmeier 146
Albin Wolf+ 144
Kurt Tanzer 143
Friedrich-Karl Muller+ 140
Karl Gratz 138
Heinrich Setz+ 138
Rudolf Trenkel 138
Walter Wolfrum 137
Horst-Gunther von Fassong+ 136
Otto Fonnekold+ 136
Karl-Heinz Weber+ 136
Joachim Muencheberg+ 135
Hans Waldmann+ 134
Alfred Grislawski 133
Franz Schall+ 133
Johannes Wiese 133
Adolf Borchers 132
Adolf Dickfeld 132
Erwin Clausen+ 132
Wilhelm Lemke+ 131
Gerhard Hoffmann+ 130
Franz Eisenach 129
Walther Dahl 129
Heinrich Sterr+ 129
Franz Dorr 128
Rudolf Rademacher 126
Josef Zwernemann+ 126
Dietrich Hrabak 125
Wolf Ettel+ 124
Herbert Ihlefeld 123
Wolfgang Tonne+ 122
Heinz Marquardt 121
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer **** 121
Robert Weiss+ 121
Erich Leie+ 121
Friedrich Obleser 120
Franz-Josef Beerenbrock 117
Hans-Joachim Birkner+ 117
Jakob Norz+ 117
Walter Oesau+ 117
Heinz Wernicke+ 117
August Lambert+ 116
Wilhelm Crinius 114
Werner Schroer 114
Hans Dammers+ 113
Berthold Korts+ 113
Helmut Lent+ **** 113
Kurt Buhligen 112
Kurt Ubben+ 110
Franz Woidich 110
Reinhard Seiler 109
Emil Bitsch+ 108
Hans Hahn 108
Bernhard Vechtel 108
Viktor Bauer 106
Werner Lucas+ 106
Gunther Lutzow+ 105
Eberhard von Boremski 104
Heinz Sachsenberg 104
Adolf Galland **** 103
Hartmann Grasser 103
Siegfried Freytag 102
Friedrich Geisshardt+ 102
Egon Mayer+ 102
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann+ 102
Josef Wurmheller+ 102
Rudolf Miethig+ 101
Werner Molders+ **** 101
Josef Priller 101
Ulrich Wernitz 101

Hungarian aces
Name Kills

Dezsõ Szentgyorgyi 34
Gyorgy Debrõdy 26
Lajos Toth 26
Laszlo Molnar+ 23
Miklos Kenyeres 18
Ferenc Malnassy+ 14
Laszlo Pottyondy 13
Istvan Fabian 13
Kalman Nanasi+ 12
Jozsef Malik 11

Italian aces
Name Kills

Adriano Visconti+ 26
Teresio Martinoli+ 23
Franco Lucchini+ 21
Leonardo Ferrulli+ 21
Mario Visentini+ 20
Franco Bisleri 19
Luigi Gorrini 19
Furio Lauri 18
Ugo Drago 16
Germano La Ferla 13

Japanese aces
Name Kills

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa+ 87
Tetsuzo Iwamoto 80
Shoychi Sugita+ 70
Saburo Sakai 64
Hiromishi Shinohara+ 58
Takeo Okumura+ 54
Satoshi Anabuki 51
Isamu Sasaki 38
Micuyoshi Tarui+ 38
Toshiyo Ota+ 34
Kazuo Sugino 32
Yashiki Kuroe 30
Shizuko Ishi+ 29
Kaneyoshi Muto+ 28
Chiyoshi Saito 28
Kenji Shimada+ 28
Sadaaki Akamatsu 27
Isamu Hosono+ 27
Yunishi Sasai+ 27
Rikia Shibata+ 27
Goychi Sumino+ 27
Moricugu Kanai 26
Hidenori Macunaga 26
Shogo Saito+ 26
Goro Furugori+ 25

Norwegian aces
Name Kills

Svein Heglund 15
Helmer Grundt-Spang 11
Werner Christie 10
Marius Eriksen 9
Martin Gran 9
Nils Jorstad 7
Frederick Fearnley+ 7
Rolf Arne Berg 6
Helge Mehre 6
Arne Austeen 6

Polish aces
Name Kills

Stanislaw Skalski 22
Witold Urbanowicz 18
Eugeniusz Horbaczewski+ 16
Boleslaw Gladych 14
Jan Zumbach 12
Marian Pisarek+ 11

Romanian aces
Name Kills

Prince Constantine Cantacuzene 60
Alexander Serbanescu+ 53
Ion Milu 18
Florian Budu 16
Ion Di Cezare 5

Slovak aces
Name Kills

Jan Režòak 32
Izidor Kovarik+ 29
Jan Gerthoffer 27
stefan Martis 19
Frantisek Cyprich 18
Rudolf Božík 17
stefan Ocvirk 10
Jozef stauder 10
Anton Matusek 10
Vladimír Krisko 9

Soviet aces
Name Kills

Ivan Kozhedub 62
Alexandr Pokryshkin 59
Nikolay Gulaev 57
Grigoriy Rechkalov 56
Kirill Yevstigneev 53
Dmitriy Glinka 50
Arseniy Vorozheykin 46
Nikolay Skomorokhov 46
Alexandr Koldunov 46
Nikolay Krasnov 44
Georgiy Kostylyov 43
Sergey Morgunov 43
Vitaliy Popkov 41

Spanish aces
Name Kills

Gonzalo Hevia Alvarez de Quiñones 12
Mariano Cuadra Medina 10
Jose Ramon Gavilan Ponce de Leon 9
Fernando Sanchez Arjona y Courtoy 9
Angel Salaz Larrazabal 7
Vicente Aldecoa Lecanda 7
Damaso Arango Lopez 7
Luis Azqueta Brunet 6
Manuel Sanchez-Tabernero de Prada 6
Lorenzo Lucas Fernandez Peña 6

British and Commonwealth aces
Name Kills

Marmaduke Pattle+ (South Africa) 51
James Johnson 38
Brendan Finucane+ 32
Adolphus Malan (South Africa) 32
George Beurling (Canada) 31
William Vale 31
Clive Caldwell (Australia) 29
John Braham 29
Robert Tuck 29
James Lacey 28
Neville Duke 28
Collin Gray (New Zealand) 28
Eric Lock+ 26
Billy Drake 25
Geoffrey Allard+ 24
Jacobus LeRoux+ (South Africa) 23
Douglas Bader 23
Donald Kingaby 23
Robert Boy 23
Michael Crossley 22
Vincent Woodward (Canada) 22
William Crawford-Compton (New Zealand) 22
Alan Deere (New Zealand) 22
Raymond Hesselyn (New Zealand) 22
Evan Mackie (New Zealand) 22

American aces
Name Kills

Richard Bong 40
Thomas McGuire+ 38
David McCampbell 34
Gregory Boyington 28
Francis Gabreski 28
Robert Johnson 28
Charles MacDonald 27
Joseph Foss 26
George Preddy+ 26
Robert Hanson+ 25
Lance Wade+ 25
Cecil Harris 24
John Meyer 24
Eugene Valencia 23
Raymond Wetmore 23
David Schilling 23
Gerald Johnson+ 22
Noel Kearby+ 22
Jay Robbins 22
Dominic Gentile 22
Fred Joseph Christensen 22
Keneth Walsh 21
John Voll 21
Donald Aldrich 20
Thomas Lynch+ 20

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I personally think that Hartmann could have scored the same number of kills on the West Front. He was a superb pilot. He started off slow but was superb pilot who had great talent. His own fellow Luftwaffe pilots did not even believe the number of kills he was getting until they saw it themselves. He was very talented and eager to fight. Hitler offered to have him exchanged the Luftwaffe Experten squadron flying Me-262's, but that would have meant months of not flying on the front and he told Hitler he would rather return to his only squadron and fight. Hitler responded with "Then go fly, but dont let anything happen to you, the German people need you." Even with the Russians having inferior aircraft it is still hard to discredit his abilities, he was just a great pilot, probably the best we will ever know of.
'

 

[cheddar cheese]

An interesting fact about Adriano Visconti is that 18 of his 26 were in the utterly hopeless Macchi MC.200 Saetta (the rest were in a far more capable Bf-109G-10)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That just shows the fact that a talented pilot can still do damage even in the most unlikely aircraft.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Yup, and then the Russians shot him down, captured him, and as he was on the way to a PoW camp got shot in the back...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

He might have been better off shot in the back, I hate to say it but the Russian POW camps were not very nice, not that the German ones were either. Both were hell and not a place I would liked to have been.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Agreed. I think it was fairly early in the war he got taken out, he could have gone on to more with the Bf-109.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes it was a better aircraft.

 

[Udet]

Raptor made very good points.

However, no one has commented further at all on what I said regarding the extremely long range of the P-51 vs the very short range of the Bf109, an issue the vast majority of USAAF historians and veterans appear to ignore when attempting to give a "rational" explanation to the very high scores of so many German aces.



DerAdler, all that info you posted here is very interesting!

Over and around Stalingrad in 1942 (September), Herman Graf destroyed the total bag of top allied ace Ivan Kozhedub with 62 soviet planes shot down! In one month only.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The German pilots were also experiencing what the British Pilots were experiencing in the BoB. The would launch on a mission to shoot down Allied Bombers land refuel and be on standy. German pilots could make several engagments a day. The Germans limited range of there aircraft did not really effect them in the latter parts of the war because they were on the defensive. The Allied aircraft needed to have the long range to strike deep into Germany. I dont think the range had much of an effect on the kills that the allied aircraft had.

 

[Udet]

DerAdler:

I am fully aware of what you just said.

Of course during 1944 the Luftwaffe fighter force was on the defensive. I know it very well.

My point is: the historians and veterans of the USAAF use the "unlimited" number of missions of the German pilots, as one of their main arguments to minimize and to explain their amazing scores!

If a Luftwaffe pilot was able to fly several missions on a single day because they were flying over their own territory defending the German cities and industries, how does that take away any substance to the fact the long range P-51´s would fly just ONE very long range mission on the same day, staying in the air MORE time than the German pilot?

The P-51s when escorting the boxes of heavy bombers were not flying right alongside the bombers, like a sheperd watching after his sheep.

Many many times the escorts were allowed a big freedom of action and there were also many mistakes; there were many times in 1944 -the P-51 long range escort era- where the venerable P-51s were not there to defend their bombers. Need examples of this? The Kassel bombing raid in Sept 27, 1944, when a 38 heavy bomber formation got massacred by the Sturmböck Fw190s. Of 380 USAAF men comprising such formation, 340 did not return.

As 1944 passed by, the long range escort P-51s gained more and more autonomy and devoted a good deal of their time (during one sole mission lasting about 8 1/2 hours) to search for enemy targets.

However, I will put into serious doubt most Luftwaffe pilots flew several missions on a single day in 1944 to intercept USAAF formations; the fuel crisis was just about to become a nightmare on that year.

The days when Luftwaffe pilots flew multiple missions on a single day were then in the past.

Please do not me wrong here: I am convinced the P-51 made one of the greatest planes of the war; not the best of the war, but one among several others.

Its verry long range was precisely the "Plus" strategic value the USAAF needed if they wanted to continue their bombing missions deep into Germany.

Still, and I digress, the arguments of the allies to make it appear Hartmann, Barkhorrn, Rall, Batz, Kittel, Priller, Marseille and company shot down as many enemies as it is known was the consequence of their very high number of missions flown is incorrect and misleading.

 

[wmaxt]

One thing that's not usualy mentioned is that the Allies would not only pull their experianced pilots out of combatbut would then train the new pilots with the tactics ect. of the war zone - in the case of the P-51 replacements this was usualy 50+ hours (except in the war zone transitions where this training was considered useless as the pilots were already experianced. P-38 replacements are reported to have much less training in the ETO though the PTO worked harder on these issues.

The Axis often sent pilots into battle barely able to fly - one of the reasons that the bf-109 is said (tounge in cheek) to have killed more Germans trying to land than Allied aircraft.