The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized....

[marseille jr]

By the way by his own modesty when interviewed in the post war years, he felt Hartmann and Marseille were the "best.

modesty? ... that's ... brains 8)

The more u research, the more u learn...

And the more on gets stuck in his own opinions and refuses to look at it from another way. The most important scientific laws were all devised by scientists in their young and fresh years. I won't doubt researching, but it is a bit on the ambivalent side in this matter ... this ain't physics or mathematics. I've read opinions of many other "specialists", always Marseille, Hartmann or Nishizawa pop up there.

Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great

Yeah right. If one flies a poorly contrived aircraft and the wing falls of suddenly or the landing gear comes out (happened to Lang) during a dogfight ...you end up dead, even when named Marseille or Bär or Von Richthofen.

 

[plan_D]

Zemke got his P-51's wing sheared off by a storm, did he die? No.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

modesty? ... that's ... brains 8)

No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership.

 

[Erich]

give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär !

 

[lesofprimus]

Quote:
The more u research, the more u learn...

And the more on gets stuck in his own opinions and refuses to look at it from another way.

Are u calling me a moron??? With 12 posts under ur belt, thats about the biggest mistake u could make here....

The most important scientific laws were all devised by scientists in their young and fresh years.

WTH does that have to do with researching a pilots accomplishments in WWII???

I've read opinions of many other "specialists", always Marseille, Hartmann or Nishizawa pop up there.

Im not talking about "opinions", im talking about documented evidence of Heinz Bars' accomplishments in the pilot seat.....

this ain't physics or mathematics.

No shiit....

Quote:
Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great

Yeah right. If one flies a poorly contrived aircraft and the wing falls of suddenly or the landing gear comes out (happened to Lang) during a dogfight ...you end up dead, even when named Marseille or Bär or Von Richthofen.

Ur obviously trying to make a point there, but damn if i cant see it... Ur trying to compare faulty aircraft and bad luck to pilot skill???

Are u actually implying that the guys who flew combat missions for years and years werent all great pilots???

 

[marseille jr]

Are u actually implying that the guys who flew combat missions for years and years werent all great pilots???

on the contrary, I contend that some of them died before they could prove how great they were. Lang scored roughly 100 victories in two months time, including many p47 and p51 when suddenly in a dogfight his undercarriage fell out ... I mean, if his plane had been well contrived, who knows where he might have ended the war ... he didn't got the chance and not because HE made a mistake. That's my point here.

No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership.

and knowing it's place in history all too well ... If he really was so much better I don't see a reason why he would have belyingly claimed Hartmann Or Jochen being better ??

Are u calling me a moron??? With 12 posts under ur belt, thats about the biggest mistake u could make here....

First and foremost I'm calling nobody a moron here and secondly, even hartmann had to start with his 1st victory and then his 2nd .... his 12th, .... to quote the legendary (american) phil ochs : 'let's not be narrow minded americans here'. Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?

Im not talking about "opinions", im talking about documented evidence of Heinz Bars' accomplishments in the pilot seat.....

...as if those 'other' opinions would be mere conjecture... Come on. It seems Bär has gotten his fair share of fans in here ....

give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär !

It's Marseille Sr. Even Bär himself admitted it.
Amen

 

[Erich]

kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi

yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide.

enough of this thread get on to some other threads and post

 

[lesofprimus]

on the contrary, I contend that some of them died before they could prove how great they were.

I totally agree with u 100%, but please state it that ur original post, rather than making no sense...

Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?

Hell Freakin Yea u are.....................

It's Marseille Sr. Even Bär himself admitted it.

No Gentleman or Great Military Leader would ever claim himself to be better than his peers...... Theres no honor in that... Honor the Dead...

...as if those 'other' opinions would be mere conjecture... Come on.

Since u havent done ur homework here, one of the more respected researchers in the world concerning the Luftwaffe happens to be involved in this discussion... Some of the stuff u have read concerning WWII aviation, he was responsible for researching...

Basically, I think u can take what erich says as the truth of the matter... It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???

 

[marseille jr]

kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi

Lol. Them computer I'm currently using only has a few pics on the HD. Actually I almost ran out of pics. Time to land some new

yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide.

Marseille was an egotistical man in the air, that's right. But on the other hand, he did care about his men as well, a lot even. I also overtly admit that I don't believe he would have survived against the americans with this kind of individual behaviour. I accept that Bär, who was after all older and more mature/experienced, must have been a much completer pilot teamplayer, if less an artist/virtuoso. Knockin down half a dozen of byrds per sortie with unbelievable deflection shooting and averaging 15 bullets per kill without getting shot yourself at age 21/22 does earn him the titel of unrivalled virtuoso in the air though (opinion of another expert, Galland). Unrivalled means no one can surpass him right? I think they were both geniuses albeit different kind of pilots. Comparison is a bit false as Marseille never got the chance to fly reichsverteitigung (dunno if it's written correct) or an me-262 or a fw-190A. So we will never know how 'complete' he might have become ... after all, he "died but a kid".

I totally agree with u 100%, but please state it that ur original post, rather than making no sense...

I did state that. Maybe it's my 'poor' english. I'm a non native english speaker as you might have noticed...

Basically, I think u can take what erich says as the truth of the matter... It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???

When einstein talked about relativity and mass-energy equivalence for the first time he was derided by ALL leading TOP scientists. I guess what you say to me was said to Einstein 1000 times back then. 40 years later hiroshima Nagasaki got a taste of relativity. I hope you get my point this time (= nobody is always right).

Hey Primus, isn't discussing what a thread is all about? So don't execute me pls

btw the cockpit is a fw-190

 

[Erich]

well in this I will agree with you.

Marseille had he been given the chance to fly a Bf 109G-6 or AS version or G-10, G-14 may very well have been overwhelmed and shot down by P-51 escorts. I could easily visualize his individual performane against 1 P-51 at a time but 6-10 would be different story. As well as flying a Kanonboot and flying in wedge formation something that would of been distasteful to one whom performed better without the wingman present

literally I./JG 27, his gruppe was slaughtered several times over during the trying late 43 through all of 44 months: Reichsverteidigung

when I first got interested in Luftwaffe a/c, pilots and tactics in the early 1960's JG 27's presence in Afrika was the first on the top of my lists of interests.......

 

[lesofprimus]

Hey Primus, isn't discussing what a thread is all about? So don't execute me pls

Jesus Christ dude... YES IT IS......... Did u even bother to read my post above???

Quote:

Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?


Hell Freakin Yea u are.....................

It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???

I hope you get my point this time (= nobody is always right).

The point is u didnt make a point..... Einstein wasnt guessing, and it wasnt his opinion either... He was a scientist... This is not science...

 

[plan_D]

An opinion cannot be wrong. An opinion is someone's feeling towards the matter, it's not information or facts. Therefore, it cannot be wrong. Einstein didn't have an opinion, he had a theory based upon facts.

 

[marseille jr]

Marseille had he been given the chance to fly a Bf 109G-6 or AS version or G-10, G-14 may very well have been overwhelmed and shot down by P-51 escorts. I could easily visualize his individual performane against 1 P-51 at a time but 6-10 would be different story. As well as flying a Kanonboot and flying in wedge formation something that would of been distasteful to one whom performed better without the wingman present

Exactly. With an inferior aircraft he would have to climb up to substantial altitude, tangle with the ennemy and return. I can envisage him being chased by p51 or p47's in a high speed dive and take hits... I'm sure he would have done miracles against 2 or 3 but against many more he would have succumbed sooner or later. At the end of his career in a close dogfight he often engaged 12 to 16 planes on his own and bring 4 or 5 down. But diving away from p51's or p47's isn't exactly dogfighting. But again, Jochen wasn't stupid. Maybe he would have set his personal ambitions aside ... He would have been 24/25 instead of 22. We'll never know what would have happened. Ah it's such a waste. He died in such a silly manner while he still had leaps of maturing ahead of him. RIP.

An opinion cannot be wrong. An opinion is someone's feeling towards the matter, it's not information or facts. Therefore, it cannot be wrong. Einstein didn't have an opinion, he had a theory based upon facts.

Oh well. Opinions can be wrong. If my opinion is that hitler himself was the best fighter pilot ...well that is as wrong as wrong can be. Einstein's theory was largely based upon assumptions (amongst them that lightspeed was constant). Of course these brilliant assumptions turned out to be right, as a consequence of that his utmost brilliant theory as well. But this isn't the place to talk/discuss about quantummechanics or relativity. I know other sites for that ...

 

[plan_D]

No, by saying that you think Hitler was the greatest fighter pilot ever would make you stupid. Opinions are normally backed up by facts, that's where the opinion comes from. The opinion itself cannot be wrong, the information that created that opinion can.

Don't try and tell me about my own language.

 

[lesofprimus]

Don't try and tell me about my own language.

I dont know if that deserves a can or a kick......

Hmmmmmmmmmm...

 

[Nonskimmer]

Yeah, I'd say that's a nutcracker.

 

[marseille jr]

The opinion itself cannot be wrong, the information that created that opinion can.

Opinions are always coloured by one's own tastes and preferences. Ever heard of a self fulfilling prophecy? Btw, not all info is clear and easy to understand. Different people do interprete information differently, and draw different conclusions. Some of those can be nonsense.

Easy to see why they called Lang 'bully (bulldog) ' right?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well even though Hartmann is my favorite I have to go with Heinz Baer, Priller or Nowotny.

 

[fukuto]

howdy boys,
i couldnt help get sucked into this thread after i voted. the one guy who was considered to be the best in the RAF at the time, the only allied pilot to outscore his axis counterpart it any theatre, was screwball beurling.
http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/beurling.htm
In the air over Malta, the war in africa (and for much needed oil) was decided. Beurling was the top scorer with 28. his german top rival was Gerhard michalski with 26. Bar, who lead for a time in this theater, scored 5. the RAF boys in Malta were in for some serious fighting. always greatly outnumbered, malnourished and suffering from the "malta dog" this war during the siege was rough. it was known as the "most bombed place on earth". the german failure to smash malta was the true beginning of the end for the germans. Rommel was denied his much needed supplies and germany was deied its much needed oil. Galland said to hitler when asked why malta was not defeated,"the English fight well with their backs to the wall"
in malta there were no super-scorers, just lots of dieing. competition was too stiff.
Today, beurling is all but forgotten because of his "bad boy" ways and because he decided to fight for isreal in 1948 and its suspected by some that he was killed by the secret service while on ruete.
In any event, during the war, in the RAF anyway, it was generally felt that he was the best. best eyes, best shot, best pilot.

but, as far as the numbers go, how bout these arguments ?
hartmann - 352 kills in 1450 some mission
nowotny - 250 kills in 442 missions but earlier in the war
or the greatest mission/kill man of all
Gunther Scheel 71 in 70 missions

Hartmann though, man, never hit by another aircraft's bullets, never lost a wingman, fought day after day way outnumbered, 10 years in russian gulag, lived to tell !!
gotta be beurling or hartmann !

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great stuff fukuto and welcome. Beurling - great pilot but a bit eccentric to say the least.