The Luftwaffe Expertens' Opinions

[Erich]

LW fighter pilots called it simply..............Lightning. Every pilot I have interviewed if they fought against it or not called it this. the P-47 was called the Thunderbolt, the P-51, the Mustang. Simple because it is.

the B-17 was called the Fortress

 

[Hesekiel]

Abot the Lightning..
Sorry... be sure the called her "Gabelschwanzteufel" !
I was myself member of the German Airforce for many years and had close contact to Luftwaffenmembers of WW2.. Also a uncle of me was in the Luftwaffe and they ALL called the Lightning by this name...

 

[Erich]

well I am sorry but we seem to disagree my relatives in the LW even called it lightning. there was no fork tailed devil, again it is brought up in mythical proportions post war even under admission from the author when pressed.

who really cares anyway guys

 

[HoHun]

Hi Hesekiel,

>Abot the Lightning..
>Sorry... be sure the called her "Gabelschwanzteufel" !

I don't believe that. I have not even once come across this hypothetical nickname in Luftwaffe pilot's memoirs, squadron histories or anything.

If it had been a universal nickname, there would be some trace in print.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Hesekiel]

Well.. believe it or not..
As i say.. i know that from a lot of tales with Luftwaffe Soldiers.
Also my uncle (flown in the KG54) called her so..
I really don´t believe everything i read in books.. i think the tales of the people they experienced that are true..
I can tell you a lot of Nicknames of equipment in the modern Luftwaffe you have never heard before...

 

[Junkers88A1]

with all the german nicknames that i have confirmed in the german book from WW2 i am sure they had nicknames for other allied aircrafts as well..
and when heisikel confirms this also i am sure this is more than a myth..and almost all myths has rots in reality.. maybe with small or larger changes..
so i think i will go for heisekel and my ww2 documents but maybe someone just called them by their names and others by nickname we even do that today in the Air Force..so i think maybe both are right

 

[HoHun]

Hi Hesekiel,

>I really don´t believe everything i read in books..

Oh, pay attention - I don't believe what I read in the books because if they were right, there'd be something to read in other books that they lack.

>i think the tales of the people they experienced that are true..

Now *that* has long been proven perfectly illusory by the science of history

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Junkers88A1]

i belive it when the book is printed in 1942 for luftwaffe crew..and they have callnames.. i dont belive in what books after the war says.. but when documents from WW2 state something i agree..and as heiskel says,his uncle flew the Ju 88 ( this i have seen here on pics he has posted and also pics and documents he has send me peronally for our 88 restoration) and if his uncle mentioned this name on the P-38 i guess there is something in it

 

[Hesekiel]

What ever you say HoHun..
Tell a German it´s father, father in law, uncles were soldiers in WW2 and who was himself a Oberfeldwebel in the Luftwaffe (Bundeswehr) what´s right or wrong..
I like it to learn....
But i like to learn by true tells and facts.. rather than learning of books...

 

[Erich]

my statements come from at least 35 LW veterans, - pilots, my German friend plus my Familie still living in the Pfalz, not from Books. so again Point out the differences and again WHO CARES !

 

[Hesekiel]

Well.. As Guttorm say...
Maybe some called it so and others so...
Just another example..
The Names of the Positions of a 88 Crew...
"Flugzeugführer", "Beoachter", "Bordfunker" and "Bordschütze".. So far... so good..
Ever heared tis Nicknames the Crew named themself??
"Kutscher", "Holzauge", "Drahtamsel", "Stachelschwein" ???

 

[HoHun]

Hi Hesekiel,

>But i like to learn by true tells and facts.. rather than learning of books...

I don't see the difference between a sea story told personally and one printed in a book.

However, "Gabelschwanzteufel" is a very special kind of sea story that has only made it into English books ... how fishy must a sea story get before you smell it?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Hesekiel]

Well... my last one about that...
I don´t think my uncle has told me any "fishy sea stories".. He had no reasons to do that....

 

[HoHun]

Hi Hesekiel,

>I don´t think my uncle has told me any "fishy sea stories".. He had no reasons to do that....

Historians have long recognized that even with the best intentions of all involved, you're going to end up with a distorted picture if you don't cross-check "oral history" with sources that are less flexible than the human memory.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Junkers88A1]

what i think is funny i all this is that i have worked with german aircrafts for 12 years..doing restoration and salvage..and meet lots and lots of veterans from both sides..and also many many hitorians and scholars..and the fun thing is that we know so little.. and a little wide openminded view is important as everything si not like we think..i have put many a scholar and cand.mag..doctors in history and so called experts in place showing them artefacts and complete aircrfats that is everything else than what it should be acording to historybook..documents and even original WW2 documents.. it was war..it was humans involved ..and we will never know all that happened..so if something hasent surface it doesent men it dident happen..and even our 88 that has been in a timecapsule for 64 years are "wrong" acording to some "experts".. so who is wrong and what is right.. and if this author found out soemthing little knowna nd used it he could be right..doesent ahev to be a fish story ! just like our 88 is painted 02 underneath and not hellblau..and it should be hellblau.. so i look at this with a open mind and agree with you all but i also know that we will never know what was said and happened during WW2 between soldiers.. some we know..some is a "myth" but myths do have a origin in reality.. and some is not correct..

 

[HoHun]

Hi Junkers,

>and even our 88 that has been in a timecapsule for 64 years are "wrong" acording to some "experts"..

A recovered aircraft wreck is hard evidence and can be used to revise concepts stemming from other sources for hard evidence (and if it were only "some 'experts'", their evidence might not have been that hard to begin with).

Oral tradition 60 years after the fact is not hard evidence, and that Hesekiel claims "all" Luftwaffe people called the P-38 "Gabelschwanzteufel" name while Erich claims "all" of them called them "Lightning" shows the problem with oral tradition (even considering that both "all" sets are not identical).

The "Gabelschwanzteufel" story is fishy for a lot of reasons: It first appears in print in English publications, it never comes up in contemporary German publications, it appears completely unknown to a large number of Luftwaffe people, it fits exactly the scheme of "let's make up awesome names for our equipment and ascribe them to the enemy to show everyone how terrifying our weapons are", and it fits very badly in the human psychology scheme of using harmless terms to describe unpleasant things.

Online Etymology Dictionary

>>Languages usually don't borrow words from abroad for central life experiences, but "die" words are an exception, since they are often hidden or changed euphemistically out of superstitious dread<<

Just look at the Il-2 that certainly threatened the lives of a lot more Germans than the P-38 - it was not called "Landser's Cruel Death", but "concrete bomber". That's the way human minds work. "Gabelschwanzteufel" is clearly the product of an Allied propaganda worker - even if it had been invented in Germany, it did not have the qualities to establish itself as a popular nickname. And if it ever had established itself, the same principle of substitution - along with verbal economy - would quickly have caused the awe-inspiring "Gabelschwanzteufel" to mutate into the harmless "Gabi" in everyday use. That there is no record of this happening even in those sources that propagate the "Gabelschwanzteufel" is another hint that the story is not just a little fishy.

Not to mention that the bloody tail doesn't actually fork - "Gabelschwanz" is in fact well-established terminology for the tails of swallows and the red kite ("Rotmilan" in German, but commonly called "Gabelweihe" = 'fork harrier'). This is further evidence that this name was made up by someone not entirely familiar with the German language who had heard the term "Gabelschwanz", but lacked the context and mis-applied it.

All the hints I see point towards "Gabelschwanzteufel" being a Allied-invented myth, and "my uncle said so" has no merit at all because retro-projection of something one has read or heard second-hand after the fact into something genuinely perceived as authentic memory is a well-known effect in oral tradition.

If someone would want to prove the "Gabelschwanzteufel" myth to be fact, the way to do it would be to read the Third Reich "Sicherheitsdienst" (SD) reports from informers among the populace. They carefully kept track of whatever they heard, and have for example preserved many anti-Nazi jokes for posterity. Reporting a "defeatist" appelation like "Gabelschwanzteufel" would have been right in their line of work! Howver, given all the above, it's probably not worth the effort as the odds that it's an Allied invention are pretty close to certainty.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)