The Myth of the British "Fixing" The Corsair

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Ambaryerno said:
It wouldn't be the first time that something patently untrue got repeated until it became accepted as if it were fact.
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  • M1 Garand killed GIs because of the "ping"
  • Japs removed Arisaka dust covers
  • Tiger tanks were the best thing ever in ww2
  • Tiger tanks were completely crap and 110% unreliable and had no impact whatsoever (the anti-wehraboo is as obnoxious as the wehraboo)*
  • Hitler got the me-262 delayed
Those are my favorite ones.
*This one is a new thing happening in the past 5 years with military youtubers, they decided it was great to dunk on the tiger myth and other stuff like the t-34, ak-47, IL-2, etc by completely going the 180 that boomer history channel documentaries talked, (no nuance except for actual historians like Military history visualized or the chieftain).
 
On Me 262
But the main reason was problems with the jet engines, there were also problems with the airframe. And then Willy's maneuvers. A quick translation of my own text on the matter.
"Part of the reason was also the first partial revival of the Me 209 program, as early as June 4, 1943, then the complete revival on August 13, 1943. More Messerschmitt design personnel were committed to its development than to the development of the Me 262 from the beginning of April 1943 to the middle of July 1943, despite the RLM's decision on 25 May 1943 to remove the Me 209 from the production plans. Willy Messerschmitt had not accepted the halting of preparations to start production of the Me 209 and wanted it to go into production together with the Me 262, in effect as the main production aircraft. Using his Nazi connections, manipulating even Hitler himself, praising the Me 209 and warning against mass production of the Me 262, justifying his position with the fact that the Me 262's fuel consumption was much higher than that of the Me 209, not mentioning that the Me 262 did not use high-octane aviation gasoline as the Me 209 being able to use more readily available fuels, he managed to get Hitler to give an order in early August 1943 to return the Me 209 to production plans, where it remained until 13 January 1944 according to Smith and Creek, or until 26 November 1943, when according to Boehme Göring personally intervened matter, ending the program. The production plan updated on 15.8.1943 kept the Me 262 production more or less unchanged, the production was to exceed the monthly production of 100 machines in December 1944, the monthly production of 250 machines in February 1945, the production of 500 machines in May 1945 and reach the monthly production of 1,000 Me 262s in September 1945. The production of the Me 209 was supposed to start in July 1944, the monthly production of 100 machines would have been reached in February 1945, the production would have increased to more than 300 machines per month in May 1945 and to more than 500 in July 1945. But the construction of two production lines at the same time slowed down the completion of both and thus delayed the start of Me 262 production. Hitler had probably been informed of the decision to put the Me 262 into serial production at the end of May 1943. According to Milch, Hitler had opposed dropping piston engine fighters from production in favour of the Me 262."


Smith and Creek = Smith, J. Richard & Creek Eddie J. 1997: Me 262 Volume One. Classic Publications, Burgess Hill.
Boehme = Boehme, Manfred 1992: JG 7 The World's First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945. Schiffer Publishing, Atglen, PA.
 
Why does this British myth exist? Well I know why but don't want to start a bunch of drama. Had enough of that over on quora.

I will say I began thinking something was screwy with that narrative when models of the so-called birdcage Corsairs from the USS Bunker Hill (Jolly Rogers) began appearing in my search results.
 
Juha3 said:
On Me 262
But the main reason was problems with the jet engines, there were also problems with the airframe. And then Willy's maneuvers. A quick translation of my own text on the matter.
"Part of the reason was also the first partial revival of the Me 209 program, as early as June 4, 1943, then the complete revival on August 13, 1943. More Messerschmitt design personnel were committed to its development than to the development of the Me 262 from the beginning of April 1943 to the middle of July 1943, despite the RLM's decision on 25 May 1943 to remove the Me 209 from the production plans. Willy Messerschmitt had not accepted the halting of preparations to start production of the Me 209 and wanted it to go into production together with the Me 262, in effect as the main production aircraft. Using his Nazi connections, manipulating even Hitler himself, praising the Me 209 and warning against mass production of the Me 262, justifying his position with the fact that the Me 262's fuel consumption was much higher than that of the Me 209, not mentioning that the Me 262 did not use high-octane aviation gasoline as the Me 209 being able to use more readily available fuels, he managed to get Hitler to give an order in early August 1943 to return the Me 209 to production plans, where it remained until 13 January 1944 according to Smith and Creek, or until 26 November 1943, when according to Boehme Göring personally intervened matter, ending the program. The production plan updated on 15.8.1943 kept the Me 262 production more or less unchanged, the production was to exceed the monthly production of 100 machines in December 1944, the monthly production of 250 machines in February 1945, the production of 500 machines in May 1945 and reach the monthly production of 1,000 Me 262s in September 1945. The production of the Me 209 was supposed to start in July 1944, the monthly production of 100 machines would have been reached in February 1945, the production would have increased to more than 300 machines per month in May 1945 and to more than 500 in July 1945. But the construction of two production lines at the same time slowed down the completion of both and thus delayed the start of Me 262 production. Hitler had probably been informed of the decision to put the Me 262 into serial production at the end of May 1943. According to Milch, Hitler had opposed dropping piston engine fighters from production in favour of the Me 262."


Smith and Creek = Smith, J. Richard & Creek Eddie J. 1997: Me 262 Volume One. Classic Publications, Burgess Hill.
Boehme = Boehme, Manfred 1992: JG 7 The World's First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945. Schiffer Publishing, Atglen, PA.
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Even by 1943, the RLM did not fully back, nor fund the jet program and this is what led to delays in the BMW003 and Jumo004 development.

Never mind that the RLM passed up every opportunity to take the lead in Jet aircraft development in the late 1930's and even had a true Jet fighter dropped in their lap (He280) in 1942 - while the Me262 was still struggling with development.

So Hitler's desire for the Me262 to be a bomber was one setback of many, but the full blame sould be placed squarely on the RLM.
 
GrauGeist said:
In the days of the Garand, there was no hearing protection for soldiers and during combat, you'd be hard-pressed to hear the clip's "ping" when it ejected, due to the roaring in your ears.

And Hitler's insistence that the Me262 be a "schnellbomber" did add to the delays that the Me262 program was experiencing.
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My dad has an M1 and I can personally confirm the only ping you hear is when the clip hits gravel. If it lands in grass, you don't hear shit.
 
CD Baumann said:
My dad has an M1 and I can personally confirm the only ping you hear is when the clip hits gravel. If it lands in grass, you don't hear shit.
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Run a few mags through that M1 without hearing protection and then tell me if you can hear the spent clips hit gravel, the mantel of an AFV or the center of a brass gong. :)

And for extra effect, wear an M1 steel pot so you can get the full pleasure of the report massaging your eardrums, skull, teeth, etc. :thumbleft:
 
GrauGeist said:
Run a few mags through that M1 without hearing protection and then tell me if you can hear the spent clips hit gravel, the mantel of an AFV or the center of a brass gong. :)

And for extra effect, wear an M1 steel pot so you can get the full pleasure of the report massaging your eardrums, skull, teeth, etc. :thumbleft:
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No way am I trying that. I'm deaf enough as it is!
With hearing protection, you hear a faint ting noise when it hits the gravel or table but nothing when the clip itself ejects other than that fierce bark coming from the barrel.
 
CD Baumann said:
No way am I trying that. I'm deaf enough as it is!
With hearing protection, you hear a faint ting noise when it hits the gravel or table but nothing when the clip itself ejects other than that fierce bark coming from the barrel.
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I had to give the laugh thingy, no offense intended - I am deaf because of that sh*t.
And if you ever want to feel the word of God in your face/eardrums/sternum, try an 8mm Mauser rifle.
It'll make an M1 Garand feel like plinking with a .22 rifle.
 
The myth is about the myth. Both the Americans and British faced the same issues at about the same time and came to much the same conclusions but then sloppy historians linked in the sensible logistical to use them from land bases in the Pacific at first and assumed that it meant that the British had found the answer as they sent them to sea.

So it was not the British who made the mythical claim but sloppy post war writers.
 
In fact, the RLM funded the development of jet engines well compared to what air ministries in other countries did. Another quick translation quote from my old text
"Messerschmitt A.G. received the first information about the jet engine in 1937, and in the early autumn of 1938, the RLM, or the German Ministry of Aviation, convened a secret meeting with representatives of the aircraft and aircraft engine industry to give them a full report on the current stage of development of the jet engine. It was announced at the meeting that Messerschmitt A.G. and BMW A.G. will form "Southern Germany's development work concentration". In October 1938, Willy Messerschmitt gave instructions to his project office to investigate whether a single- or twin-engine jet should be aimed primarily at. The company received a formal jet fighter development contract from the RLM in late 1938. On January 4, 1939, the RLM issued a specification to the aviation industry called "Preliminary Technical Guidelines for a Fast Jet Fighter".
Messerschmitt A.G. after his preliminary studies started his jet fighter project, which eventually developed into the Me 262, on 1 April 1939. The company had settled on a twin-engine plane and presented its project proposal under the code P 1065 to the RLM on June 7, 1939. RLM approved the plan and gave permission to make the model..."

"…On the engine side, at the beginning of 1939, Brandenburgische Motorenwerke GmbH, better known by its abbreviation Bramo, received a development contract from RLM to develop a 600 kp jet engine. Its RLM project number was 109-003. BMW AG bought Bramo in July 1939 and also took over the development of this engine, at BMW it was initially named BMW P.3302 and later it was given the type name BMW 003. Initially, the intention was that Messerschmitt's P 1065 test machines would have been powered by the BMW P.3302s and on 1 Dec1939, a meeting was held between BMW, RLM and the Rechlin research station regarding the installation of the BMW P.3302 and P.3304 jet engines on the Messerchmitt A.G. P 1065 plan with fuel systems and gauges. However, these plans did not materialize due to the slow development of the engines, but after one unsuccessful test flight, the Me 262 was powered by Junkers' Jumo 004. RLM had ordered a jet engine from Junkers that could be quickly put into production in July 1939. The company chose an axial-charged solution, but otherwise decided to proceed cautiously in order to minimize the risks of the development work. [Kay 2007 p. 189, according to the same, development of 109-004 began in December 1939. According to Whitfield, in December 1939, it was decided to move directly to the construction of a full-size jet engine prototype when the scaled-down supercharger had broken during testing.] Since Junkers was simultaneously developing important piston engines for the Luftwaffe, the jet engine was initially developed by only a small group, which gradually grew as Junkers hired newly graduated diploma engineers. On the other hand, there were never any problems with funding, but there was enough of it and thus over time the group got good development and testing conditions. The design work started properly in October 1939. The first successful flight test under the fuselage of the Bf 110 took place on March 15, 1942. The successful tests prompted the RLM to order 80 Jumo 004 A test engines in the late summer of 1942 [according to Kay 2007 p. 190, 30 109-004 A-0 jet engines were produced]. 004 A was not intended as anything more than an experimental engine, the 004 B intended as a production engine would be a redesigned version that would be lighter and whose structure would clearly require less strategic raw materials and would be better suited for serial production. The first test bench use of Jumo 004 B took place in February 1943. The first Me 262 equipped with 004 B-0s was a V6, whose first flight took place on 17.10. 1943."

On He 280, the development of jet engines took time, the high temperatures in the combustion chamber(s) were a big problem, especially for the turbine blades, which at the same time had to withstand very high revolutions. The British also had difficulties in developing a durable enough metal alloy for turbine blades, although they did not have the same shortage of alloy metals as Germany. The biggest lack was of professionals with the right kind of technical training in all the major aviation powers. This is why the British concluded in 1944 that the war would be won with propeller planes, jet projects were developed with fewer resources just in case Germany made a surprising leap in jet engine technology and for the post-war period. The Germans were of course forced to try some radical solutions from the end of the summer of 1943 or make peace.

And the British did the same with the Meteor as the Germans did with the Me 262, first an order for a pre-production series, when the first test flights did not go as planned, the order quantity was reduced, when the test flights started to go well, the orders increased. One shouldn't throw good money after bad money, especially when there was a shortage of resources. Both had already learned that it was not worth producing large quantities of junk like, for example, Blackburn Botha and AW Albemarle or Me 210.

Even He 280 airframe was not ready in 1942. During the testing of the He 280, problems arose at higher flight speeds due to vibrations at the tail. In order to increase the airspeed to over 800 km/h and being capable of combat manoeuvres at those speeds, major changes to the airframe would have been necessary.

And what would have been done with it in 1942/43 in the main theatres of war on the Eastern Front and the Mediterranean. It was not suitable for frontline fields or the Sahara in general, and what would have been done on the eastern front with a fighter whose operating range at low altitude was something like 400 kilometres, practical operational time at low altitude probably closer to ½ hour.

And Germans did not foresee P-51B, they thought that they could handle USAAF heavy bombers with heavily armed fighters and zerströers.

On Hitler's influence
The Me 262 was originally designed to be able to carry bombs. When Göring asked Willy if the 262 could carry bombs, it was Willy who declared that of course 2 x 250 kg, even 2 x 500 kg bomb loads. For which Göring said, excellent, Hitler would have been satisfied with a couple of 70 kg bombs, but that is downright brilliant. Fulfilling Hitler's wish would have been easy, Willy himself was the one who ensured that bigger changes had to be made. Of course, when it became clear to Hitler in the spring of 1944 that all the completed 262s were pure interceptors, he had his famous fit of rage. In itself, Hitler's idea of jet fighter-bombers attacking the landing forces and landing craft at the critical stage of the landing was not bad at all.
 
GrauGeist said:
I had to give the laugh thingy, no offense intended - I am deaf because of that sh*t.
And if you ever want to feel the word of God in your face/eardrums/sternum, try an 8mm Mauser rifle.
It'll make an M1 Garand feel like plinking with a .22 rifle.
Click to expand...
I have found both muzzle blast and felt recoil from steel buttplates of Mauser 7.92 or AR-10 or Garand are nigh indistinguishable, although the stock design of the AR is superior.

Strangely I Do hear a distinctive ping when the clip ejects on the M-1
 
Juha3 said:
itself, Hitler's idea of jet fighter-bombers attacking the landing forces and landing craft at the critical stage of the landing was not bad at all.
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It's interesting how the japanese navy analogue of the me-262 was intended as a naval strike aircraft while it would be far more useful as a interceptor at this point in the war and the German case was the opposite.
I'd imagine 2 JaBo wings ready by July or August would be a painful surprise for the allies.
 
It has been a lot years but I can remember the M-1 giving a "ping".
However on a firing line with 30-40 guys firing (100-150ft of firing line) with 1/2 M-1 rifles (10 rounds each in 50-60 seconds?) hearing every ping up and down the line and identifying eject ping from landing on tarmac/asphalt ping and/or cartridge case pings landing on different things gets a bit confusing.

Also takes a brave German/Italian/Japanese soldier to jump up hearing the ping and not knowing if the "pinger" has got a buddy with loaded rifle close by covering the same area.

Not saying it never happened but infantry fights were very rarely mano a mano duals.

Edit:
Also takes a German/Italian/Japanese soldier who had been in combat before who had been close enough to hear the "ping" and identify it for what it was.
If you have 4 GI's shooting at you, you get 4 pings every 32 shots.
 
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