The P-38J and L in the European theater.

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The P-51B/D was the bastard stepchild of the P-51 Mustang airframe and the Packard Merlin 1650-3.

With the Allison it was a superb replacement to P-39 and P-40 in the low to middle altitude CAS, medium bomber escort role. With the Merlin it was all of those things from SL past 35,000 feet plus long range air superiority fighter.

Had the XP-51G entered serial production in Fall of 1944 it would have rivalled any piston engine interceptor and medium to long range escort fighter ever built. It would still have more range than P-38L/P-47D-25 on internal fuel alone but its combat radius would narrowly cover Berlin/Munich but not Iwo Jima/Tokyo.
 
All very well dg but you must be wrong, I mean look at it, no way is that an accident of birth


Just joking, it is hard to believe though.
 
Some examples of Phase Three please.

how about the first combat of the Bouton Paul Defiant

first combats of the F2A Buffalo in the Far East / CBI

first combats of the Bf 110 in Poland and France (successful!) and in the BoB (not successful and clearly needing redesign and / or a new role)

first combats of the P-38

first combats of the Ki 43

One of the things that happened a lot in phase 3 was they realized they needed to add a raft of things like more and better armor and fuel system protection, better high altitude capability (if they could figure that out) plumbing for external fuel tanks, more and better guns, more and better ammunition, better or improved radios, and etc. Sometimes they decided that the plane in question needed better turning or rolling capability and so added features like combat flaps. Sometimes they had problems which took a long time to figure out like the compressability / dive problems of the P-38.

Sometimes they figured out (often the hard way) that they needed to strengthen wings or fuselage
 
So, Schweik - you disagreed with my insertions and/or comments above to this postulation of your five phases of Design through serial production? What did you disagree with?
 
There is also plenty of examples of aircraft that were designed and funded in house by an aircraft manufacturer with the hopes of landing a contract. Some were accepted outright, some were adapted/modified to meet a proposal and some fell short.

A few examples:
Lockheed's XP-58
Heinkel's He100
Curtiss' P-36 (Hawk 75)
Hawker's Typhoon
Seversky's SEV-3/P-35 (predecessor to the P-47)
Heinkel's He280
Focke-Wulf's Fw187

And so on...
 

This is a confused muddle of specific US and RAF processes all of which fall under 'phase two'

(P-40K/N assigned to Air Training Command, P-39 also assigned to train units in States, P-63 deployed to ATC and Russia)
P-40K was one of the most successful P-40 variants and in wide / heavy combat use with the RAF, RAAF, Soviets, US 57th FG in the MTO, and 23rd, 51st, and 80th FG in the CBI. There were more aces flying the P-40K than P-38E or F for example.

P-63 was designed for the Russians with direct Russian involvement. It was changed after early combat experiences per their request.

Phase four as you presented is actually Phase 2.8 above

Actually no, you completely missed the point - very often aircraft made it through all the testing and acceptance phases, got into combat and were found to be extremely unsuitable for the intended mission when faced with actual enemy aircraft. Example I cited above such as the Defiant, the F2A and Me 110 were either quickly phased out or given a new mission (Me 110 converted to night fighter) or like the Ki-43, they were 'sent back to the drawing board' with fairly significant changes made.

During WWII in US, your Phase five was eliminated before order placed for high quantity production - examples given include P-47B, P-51B which were contracted for production before first actual prototype flight.

Yes and quite often production orders were immediately cancelled or drastically reduced as soon as the aircraft got into combat. For example the USAAF ordered 80 P-43s, but as soon as early models did poorly in Europe they cancelled the order and Seversky went back to the drawing board, ultimately leading to the P-47.

Perhaps a more salient example, the Luftwaffe put in an order for 1,000 Me 210 before they were even flown. But all the numerous problems led to a drastic reduction in that order and only 90 were made. Ultimately they kept modifying them until they came up with the Me 410 (a bit too late)

In many examples, the Specifiers were way off and the designers did a credible job of design/fab to spec. Where many designers

Ultimately it was kind of irrelevant if the problems were with the specs or the actual design or both (usually it was both). Corporate and military bureaucracy rarely predicted or implemented the design for the the actual needs well, let alone perfectly.

P-40 4-26-38 to 9-1940 (Russia)
P-47 9-6-1940 to 4-8-1943 (8th AF)
P-51 4-12-1940 to 5-10-1942 (RAF)
P-51B 8-25-1942 to 12-1-1943 (9th AF)

P-40 flew in combat in 1940? That's news to me. I think it would be a neat trick considering the first ones arrived in Russia in August and September 1941 (from English and US sources respectively) according to this article

Allison P-51 continued to be 'modded' long after may 1942

P-47 had a particularly long teething as mentioned re: the P-43 above.

S
 
So, Schweik - you disagreed with my insertions and/or comments above to this postulation of your five phases of Design through serial production? What did you disagree with?

I think you are talking much more about the official design and acceptance process, where I'm talking more about what happens after the design encounters reality and the scramble to change it sufficiently to survive combat (often requiring they find some other role for it).

Fairy Fulmar made it through design and acceptance trials and then faced combat, where they quickly realized it was more suitable for recon than actual fighting. I think it was basically the same for the P-51A (also used as a dive bomber).

Also, to me it makes no difference to me if it was a private venture by the company, a side deal for some foreign government, or part of a formal proposal by their own government. Thats all part of the design and acceptance phase to me.
 
Regardless of the design the engine had to gain an average of 200BHP per year from 1940 to 45 ending at 2000+. Similar improvements had to be made in drag reduction, armament protection drag reduction etc. Some base designs could be modified some couldnt
 

Sure but if it was as simple as putting more horsepower in the Fairey Firefly and the Helldiver would have been great planes, and the Fairey Spearfish and the Douglas Skypirate would have been legends...

S
 
Speaking of legendary amounts of horsepower, can somebody explain why they didn't use the F7F in WW2? 4200 hp is pretty sweet. nice looking design too unlike a lot of others late-war one-offs.





They had them in 1944 right? Climb rate is phenomenal. Celing 40,000 ft. Even wing loading is pretty good for a twin engined fighter.


Grumman F7F Tigercat - Wikipedia
 
They wouldn't because the war was over when the Spearfish first flew, they certainly would if they were in service in 1941.

Ok I got to admit, I'm a little disappointed you didn't follow that. Well let me put it this way. Which aircraft do you think got more victories against Axis aircraft:

Fairey Firefly (1,730 hp)
Hawker Typhoon (2,180 hp)
Yak 3 (1,300 hp)

Also Spearfish first flight July 1945 end of war Sept 1945. I know that isn't long enough to get into combat but your literal statement was wrong breh.
 
Which had the most victories in 1939/40 Hurricane or P-51?
 
It only performed poorly in the hands of Chinese pilots.
Pilots of the AVG wanted to retain their P-43s after newer types were becoming available.
The USAAC liked the performance of the P-43, but felt it was overall obsolete BUT ended up placing an order for the P-43 to keep Republic's assembly line going until the P-47 became available (which was under development and nearing acceptance). The aircraft purchased were intended to be trainers from the start.

Also, the P-43 was one of the few Allied types that could climb fast enough and high enough to intercept and dow the KI-46.
 

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