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I have seen this many times on this forum, I believe it stems first from a picture of a P-51D and an evaluation of its range, speed and altitude performance and all round handling qualities. It seems rational to conclude that it was designed to do that from the outset, but the fact is it wasn't.
All very well dg but you must be wrong, I mean look at it, no way is that an accident of birthThe P-51B/D was the bastard stepchild of the P-51 Mustang airframe and the Packard Merlin 1650-3.
With the Allison it was a superb replacement to P-39 and P-40 in the low to middle altitude CAS, medium bomber escort role. With the Merlin it was all of those things from SL past 35,000 feet plus long range air superiority fighter.
Had the XP-51G entered serial production in Fall of 1944 it would have rivalled any piston engine interceptor and medium to long range escort fighter ever built. It would still have more range than P-38L/P-47D-25 on internal fuel alone but its combat radius would narrowly cover Berlin/Munich but not Iwo Jima/Tokyo.
Some examples of Phase Three please.
So, Schweik - you disagreed with my insertions and/or comments above to this postulation of your five phases of Design through serial production? What did you disagree with?I
["Schweik,]I think we are talking about two different things here, and this is kind of a big deal in aircraft development.
In the above scenario, the P-40Q was not solicited by AAF - it was an investment, originally based on upgrading wing to low drag and introducing new Allison two stage supercharger to improve high altitude cability - but use an airframe for which tooling and processes (P-40K) existed and easily placed into production following acceptance testing and Agreement for serial production -
- Phase one is initial design and planning. Requirements issued by the government, companies come up with designs they think will match them.
- Phase two is the actual building and testing of the first few prototypes
- Phase 2.1 is evaluation and recommendation to the manufacturer for mandatory and desirable improvements
- Phase 2.5 is acknowledgment, discussion and Agreement to specific improvements
- Phase 2.7 is release of Y version meeting agreement (not always followed - NA-73 and P-47 are specific examples where production was authorized before testing improvements.
- Phase 2.8 is release of early production series to customer (ie BPC/RAF) to perform Operational Suitability Testing, which if accepted as is, leads to deployment to Training and operational units for training prior to combat
- Phase three is the introduction to the field and first contact with the enemy. Many aircraft never got past this stage.
- Phase 3.0 is recommendation for new mods, and/or decision that aircraft does not have a strong capability to accomplish projected role, but has value elsewhere (P-39, P-40 later models as P-38 and P-47 and P-51 are produced in numbers to gradually replace the operational aircraft and return the obsolete aircraft to lower threat environment (P-40K/N assigned to Air Training Command, P-39 also assigned to train units in States, P-63 deployed to ATC and Russia)
- Phase four is initial series production, teething, subsequent redesigns and improvements - this is when a given aircraft either becomes viable or gets cancelled. The aircraft is in production and gets used but may not yet be ideally suited for any job.
- Phase four as you presented is actually Phase 2.8 above
- Phase five is when - if the design is very successful - they start large-scale production and it gets into the field in significant numbers, and becomes one of the mainstays of the war.
- During WWII in US, your Phase five was eliminated before order placed for high quantity production - examples given include P-47B, P-51B which were contracted for production before first actual prototype flight.
I'm talking about phases three and four. You guys are talking about phases one and two.
I'm talking about all except end of life cycle.
The design theories are often way, way off, and have to be radically rethought after they contact the enemy.
In many examples, the Specifiers were way off and the designers did a credible job of design/fab to spec. Where many designers failed in 1937-1942 was lack of awareness of drag rise at speeds above .5M and/or low drag airfoils which reduced high speed performance estimates to crap (specifically CW and Bell and even Douglas)
For the P-38 phase four lasted a long time. Two years arguably. For the mustang it also lasted about a year (however long the Allison Engined ones were in use). Others had a shorter
From Contract to 1st Operational combat sortie:
P-38 6-23-37 to 4-42
P-39 10-7-37 to 10-9-41
P-40 4-26-38 to 9-1940 (Russia)
P-47 9-6-1940 to 4-8-1943 (8th AF)
P-51 4-12-1940 to 5-10-1942 (RAF)
P-51B 8-25-1942 to 12-1-1943 (9th AF)
- Phase 2.7 is release of Y version meeting agreement (not always followed - NA-73 and P-47 are specific examples where production was authorized before testing improvements.
- Phase 2.8 is release of early production series to customer (ie BPC/RAF) to perform Operational Suitability Testing, which if accepted as is, leads to deployment to Training and operational units for training prior to combat
P-40K was one of the most successful P-40 variants and in wide / heavy combat use with the RAF, RAAF, Soviets, US 57th FG in the MTO, and 23rd, 51st, and 80th FG in the CBI. There were more aces flying the P-40K than P-38E or F for example.(P-40K/N assigned to Air Training Command, P-39 also assigned to train units in States, P-63 deployed to ATC and Russia)
Phase four as you presented is actually Phase 2.8 above
During WWII in US, your Phase five was eliminated before order placed for high quantity production - examples given include P-47B, P-51B which were contracted for production before first actual prototype flight.
In many examples, the Specifiers were way off and the designers did a credible job of design/fab to spec. Where many designers
P-40 4-26-38 to 9-1940 (Russia)
P-47 9-6-1940 to 4-8-1943 (8th AF)
P-51 4-12-1940 to 5-10-1942 (RAF)
P-51B 8-25-1942 to 12-1-1943 (9th AF)
So, Schweik - you disagreed with my insertions and/or comments above to this postulation of your five phases of Design through serial production? What did you disagree with?
For example the USAAF ordered 80 P-43s, but as soon as early models did poorly in Europe they cancelled the order
Regardless of the design the engine had to gain an average of 200BHP per year from 1940 to 45 ending at 2000+. Similar improvements had to be made in drag reduction, armament protection drag reduction etc. Some base designs could be modified some couldnt
Enough horsepower and you will definitely become a legend.Sure but if it was as simple as putting more horsepower in the Fairey Firefly and the Helldiver would have been great planes, and the Fairey Spearfish and the Douglas Skypirate would have been legends...
S
The P-43 was sent to Europe?
They wouldn't because the war was over when the Spearfish first flew, they certainly would if they were in service in 1941.Sure but if it was as simple as putting more horsepower in the Fairey Firefly and the Helldiver would have been great planes, and the Fairey Spearfish and the Douglas Skypirate would have been legends...
S
They wouldn't because the war was over when the Spearfish first flew, they certainly would if they were in service in 1941.
Which had the most victories in 1939/40 Hurricane or P-51?Ok I got to admit, I'm a little disappointed you didn't follow that. Well let me put it this way. Which aircraft do you think got more victories against Axis aircraft:
Fairey Firefly (1,730 hp)
Hawker Typhoon (2,180 hp)
Yak 3 (1,300 hp)
Also Spearfish first flight July 1945 end of war Sept 1945. I know that isn't long enough to get into combat but your literal statement was wrong breh.
Read the link you provided.Speaking of legendary amounts of horsepower, can somebody explain why they didn't use the F7F in WW2? 4200 hp is pretty sweet. nice looking design too unlike a lot of others late-war one-offs.
View attachment 500544
View attachment 500545
They had them in 1944 right? Climb rate is phenomenal. Celing 40,000 ft. Even wing loading is pretty good for a twin engined fighter.
Grumman F7F Tigercat - Wikipedia
It only performed poorly in the hands of Chinese pilots.Yes and quite often production orders were immediately cancelled or drastically reduced as soon as the aircraft got into combat. For example the USAAF ordered 80 P-43s, but as soon as early models did poorly in Europe they cancelled the order and Seversky went back to the drawing board, ultimately leading to the P-47.
Sorry typo - should have said CBI