The Spitfire, My Journey

[P-40K-5]

A chain of radar stations covered the south-east of England. Combined with the work of the Royal Observer Corps, radar was the eyes of the RAF and Fighter Command in particular. The pilots of Fighter Command needed to be in the air as soon as was possible in an effort to stop the Luftwaffe getting to England. It was radar that gave them this time. It also allowed the pilots to stay in the air longer as the pilots could be given specific bearings as to where they could find incoming enemy planes - as opposed to time spent hunting for them and wasting valuable fuel reserves. whereas the LW had to do just that.

wonder how the spitfire would have done without its guardian angel? not slamming, just a thought.

 

[Kryten]

which is exactly what I said when I wrote--
the circumastances of losses are influenced vastly more by the tactical and strategic situation than the make and model of plane!

german losses during the tip and run campaign though fewer in numbers than the RAF offensive effort shows its this kind of mission that generated the losses not just the plane they flew!

 

[Kryten]

A chain of radar stations covered the south-east of England. Combined with the work of the Royal Observer Corps, radar was the eyes of the RAF and Fighter Command in particular. The pilots of Fighter Command needed to be in the air as soon as was possible in an effort to stop the Luftwaffe getting to England. It was radar that gave them this time. It also allowed the pilots to stay in the air longer as the pilots could be given specific bearings as to where they could find incoming enemy planes - as opposed to time spent hunting for them and wasting valuable fuel reserves. whereas the LW had to do just that.

wonder how the spitfire would have done without its guardian angel? not slamming, just a thought.

as the targets were the bombers I would have thought they would have had to work harder but still achieve the aim, as we saw in Malta!
In both those campaigns the RAF's job was to destroy bombers not duel with 109's and that simple fact, that the two sides had very different aims make trying to claim the superiority of one aircraft over another pure folly!
Spitfires shot down plenty of enemy aircraft and took plenty of losses themselves, but the pilot experience, strategic situation and tactics make a far bigger impact on the outcome of a campaign than the make and model!

simple fact is everyone who flew the Spit considered it a true thoughroughbred, its reputation blossomed on the opinions of those who flew it, but to try and denigrate the aircraft and claim the superiority of one type over another is simply personal predjudice!

 

[P-40K-5]

well I'm not claiming one was superior to the other in this thread. all I'm saying is that without RADAR use by the Brits in the BoB, the outcome would have been much different.

 

[Readie]

well I'm not claiming one was superior to the other in this thread. all I'm saying is that without RADAR use by the Brits in the BoB, the outcome would have been much different.

Radar, high level low level gave us an advantage over the LW. Goering was the LW's undoing by his arrogant miscalculations. The LW pilots did their best but, the day belonged to the RAF. Aircraft aside I believe that fighting over your country in the circumstances of the BoB gave the RAF a morale boost that the LW did not have. You'll also note that a lot of BoB RAF pilots were Commonwealth, Free French, American Poles these people volunteered to repel the Nazi's and to fight for freedom and justice. British core values that the allies shared.
Cheers
John

 

[Readie]

they should have questioned the lack of range which put those airmen at risk against superior aircraft

As I have said, the low level cross channel raids were the first hit back at Germany after the BoB. The Spitfire, with all its range issues, acquitted itself with honour and as RR Supermarine developed her through the mark 5 to mark 9 she became beefier and better suited to the next stage of the war.
In August 1942 the Air Ministry air tactics department issued a crisp and useful technical instruction for mark V pilots
'when in the vicinity of Huns, fly maximum everything and in good time'
Cheers
John

 

[Shortround6]

The BoB and Malta are not quite the same thing. The Germans are not going to bring England to it's knees by bombing Portsmouth and Dover. The have to hit inland targets and cross Britain targets like Bristol, Coventry and Liverpool. This allows things like the observer corp to track attacks or use shadowing aircraft. Malta isn't much longer than a decent bomb run. Not much question of were the axis planes are going. I mean if the Germans had limited their attacks to between Brighton and Hastings the British would have hardly needed radar to intercept the raiders. Radar did help but radar also didn't track targets inland during the BoB. Once the Germans were much past the coast it was the "old fashion" method of observing and plotting.


Readie,
Emotional rhetoric tells us how you feel about the Spitfire but that all it tells us. Plenty of aircraft (or at least their crews) "acquitted themselves with honour" and didn't do spit for winning the war except to make the enemy use up bullets.
The British used up way too many aircraft and air crew in gallant, heroic, attacks in 1939-40 that achieved little more than providing inspiration and tradition for those who came latter. There is a very fine line between gallant and heroic missions and fool hardy ones. The ones doing the flying usually didn't get to make the decision. The ones doing the flying often turned foolhardy missions into gallant and heroic ones by their sacrifice.

 

[stona]

Radar, high level low level gave us an advantage over the LW.
John

Yes it did but the radar and the fighters were part of a coordinated air defence system and that is why there is a statue to Dowding outside St Clement Danes Church on The Strand. If you don't link your radar,observers, Y service (wireless intercepts) etc to a control system for your fighters then the effectiveness of each individual element is reduced or negated. Dowding had done just that brilliantly and Park knew how to use it.
There is always a bigger tactical picture than the frustrating "my plane is better than your plane" comments that keep appearing in these threads.
Cheers
Steve

 

[P-40K-5]

' The ones doing the flying often turned foolhardy missions into gallant and heroic ones by their sacrifice. '

this one sentence summed up Operation Bodenplatte..... well said Sir.

 

[Kryten]

yep the late war is a prime example of stratergy and tactics changing to suit the situation, by then it was the Luftwaffe who was fielding rookie pilots against veterans and suffered accordingly!
when debating which plane was what we allways seem to neglect the human element which played a greater role than any!

 

[Readie]

Readie,
Emotional rhetoric tells us how you feel about the Spitfire but that all it tells us. Plenty of aircraft (or at least their crews) "acquitted themselves with honour" and didn't do spit for winning the war except to make the enemy use up bullets.
The British used up way too many aircraft and air crew in gallant, heroic, attacks in 1939-40 that achieved little more than providing inspiration and tradition for those who came latter. There is a very fine line between gallant and heroic missions and fool hardy ones. The ones doing the flying usually didn't get to make the decision. The ones doing the flying often turned foolhardy missions into gallant and heroic ones by their sacrifice.

Shortround, You say about the losses but, that is also replicated by the army and navy.What else is war if not wasteful? You also comment about emotional rhetoric but, the thread is about the Spitfire after all...
Cheers
John

 

[pbfoot]

As I have said, the low level cross channel raids were the first hit back at Germany after the BoB. John

Showering the enemy with Merlins amd Aluminium doesn`t count plus its pricey. Please note I`m conversant on Spit ops no expert but I wholeheartly believe the Spit was mis employed

 

[Shortround6]

Shortround, You say about the losses but, that is also replicated by the army and navy.What else is war if not wasteful?
John

The idea about winning a war of material is to get your enemy to waste more of his assets/ resources than you are. Losing men/material to actually gain something, even if the "gain" is a few days time to save a larger amount of men and material is one thing. Losing men and material just so you can "say" you are hitting back is another.
The Russians had more men to lose than the Germans and they used/lost them to stop the Germans and drive them back, but they were also running out of men in the spring of 1945. Maybe they 'spent' a little too freely earlier in the war?

 

[Readie]

The idea about winning a war of material is to get your enemy to waste more of his assets/ resources than you are. Losing men/material to actually gain something, even if the "gain" is a few days time to save a larger amount of men and material is one thing. Losing men and material just so you can "say" you are hitting back is another.
The Russians had more men to lose than the Germans and they used/lost them to stop the Germans and drive them back, but they were also running out of men in the spring of 1945. Maybe they 'spent' a little too freely earlier in the war?

'Showering the enemy with Merlins amd Aluminium doesn`t count plus its pricey. Please note I`m conversant on Spit ops no expert but I wholeheartly believe the Spit was mis employed'

Shortround pbfoot, I have a great deal of respect for your views.

I understand the Russian V German battle and Stalins disregard for the value of his men's life.
The British and Commonwealth, the American ,the French and German troops had had a belly full of General's disregard of life in WW1.'lions lead by Donkeys' is a good book.

The 'Rhurbarb' and 'Circuses' were expensive, 200 pilots in 3 months and that is why Churchill stopped those operations. We could not sustain that loss rate. Even Bader and Stanford Tuck were shot down.

The answer to your points is more complex than I believe you think. If you look at the British (and I include all those other countries whose men had volunteered) position after the BoB you will see that we had had a close shave. The immediate threat of invasion had passed and while Britain was continually attacked for the remainer of WW2 the German invasion plan never resurfaced.
So, what do we do? The LW have been defeated /gave up ( you decide) and our allies have yet to join in the European war in any meaningful way and the Lend Lease deals are still being thrashed out.
We have the improved Spitfire to use as a ground attack weapon, We have our bombers and we have our Navy to fight with.
The Royal Marine Commando raids on occupied Europe and North Africa are a subject in themselves with loss of men, bad luck and very hard lessons learnt.
Churchill had to keep the momentum going, keep the British chin up, whatever expression you care to use and the military that could be used to hit back at the enemy was used as well as we could at the time.
The effectiveness of the rescources used and wasted during this period are all now judged with the benefit of hindsight. I have read a lot about the Commando and bomber raids and the low level attacks and I am saddened at the sheer cost of achieving very little, other than being seen to fight on and show Germany and the rest of the world that Britain was not done.
I believe these operations were entirely acceptable and understandable in the context of the time.
Cheers
John

 

[fastmongrel]

what was Britain supposed to do. Nothing just sit there and let the Germans do as they please. Yes the Spit wasnt ideal for offensive opps over France yes they were expensive in men and materials but those missions taught the RAF valuable lessons which wouldnt have been learnt sitting on a hard standing in Britain. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight we can see what should have been done and its fun discussing it ad infinitum but without that knowledge the people at the sharp end had to learn it somehow.

Can anyone propose there ideal strategy for the RAF in that period. Personally I would have put more planes into the Med theatre but that might have been political suicide for the government, we musnt forget Britain was a democracy and denuding Britains defences would not have gone down well with a public that was still being hit hard by the LW albeit mostly at night.

 

[Readie]

After a short break I'll continue with this thread...I know you have all been waiting with baited breath I would just like to reiterate that this is my personal journey and love affair with the Spitfire, so you will have to excuse the occasional emotional statements...
I'm going to type it all out on 'word' and cut n' paste later this evening.
Cheers
John

 

[Readie]

After the BoB the RAF took on an offensive role and it was unsurprising perhaps that the master of defence Dowding was put out to pasture. The time had arrived for god's wonderful Spitfire to grow up, put on a bit of beef and confront some new deadly enemies.
The Spitfire became heavier and more powerful; it sprouted more devastating guns and flew high and fast as a PR recon plane. A PR Mk1X brought back the pictures of Guy Gibson's 'Dam Busters' raid that provided a much needed morale boost for the beleaguered British.
The Spitfire flew from its English cradle to become the star of the campaign to drive the Axis powers from Sicily and the Italian peninsula. It stretched its wings over the Soviet Union from the time of the Battle of Stalingrad, from 1942 to 1945, it fought from and over deserts, jungles and distant oceans. It found a roost in Darwin against the Japanese, and after the Nazi unconditional surrender 1945 it flew, as the Seafire, from carriers in every major ocean, giving the US Navy a much needed boost in the Pacific as they were entranced with her grace and power.
F Pick wrote an essay 'Paths to Peace' outlining the sort of Britain everyone was, or ought to be fighting to preserve and improve. The Spitfire pilots were drawn from all over the world and it all my reading I have never read a single word of criticism for Mitchell's sky goddess.
RR's S Hooker had been at work developing the Merlin to develop an astounding 2640bhp, but, settled for 2030bhp for the Merlin's fitted to the MK1X. The FW190 was beaten.
RR had intended to fit the 37L Griffon but, wisely kept the beautiful Merlin. The Mk 1X was a magnificent fighter and favourite of Johnnie Johnson with his EN398. This mark of Spitfire also hit new heights at 43000, well beyond the reach of German fighters and AA guns. Pressurised cabins were definitely needed at these Olympian heights.
In September 1942 the highest recorded combat of WW2 was recorded when a MK1X engaged with a Ju86R at 43500 feet over Southampton.
In 1942,The Spitfire, complete with ungainly 170 gallon drop belly tanks flew across the Mediterranean to save Malta, flying from the HMS Eagle ,USS Wasp and HMS Furious. The Spitfires that arrived in Malta were fitted with 250Lb bombs and turned from Island defender to aggressor were they excelled as dive bombers and then turned to fighters to beat the FW190's, BF190's and MC202/205 of the Regia Aeronautica LW.
George Beurling excelled with his MkVC and invented some amazing moves that tested Mitchell's Spitfire to its limit.
The Spitfire defeated Mussolini and under Park's leadership the pilots grew in confidence, comprehensively sweeping all before them.
Herr Goering was so incensed with his LW pilot's failure that he issued an order demanding an immediate improvement from his pilots or be sent to the eastern front to serve on the ground…
The MarkX1V had the power to catch the ME262 and successful reports exist like the 14 February 1945 Flight Lieutenant Gaze of 610 Squadron shot one down over Nijmegen.
Shenstone's wing enabled the Spitfire to exceed 0.86 mach easily and remain in control. Tests proved that the ME262 would go out of control at 0.86 mach. The Spitfire heralded in the jet age.
The muscular Spitfire MkX1V was fast enough to catch Hitler's last throw of the dice, the V weapons, and England's guardian angel spread her wings and once again protected her homeland.
The Spitfire can lay claim to the only true fighter that fought in every theatre in WW2 and emerged triumphant. Designed in the 1930's to defend Britain it she has no serious competitor, she was a very British iron fist in a velvet glove, an aerial racehorse that captured the hearts of every Briton and influenced the design of Jaguars D type racing car, gave her name to sleek locomotives, sports cars a BSA motorbike and spawned an industry in model making so boys could still strafe the enemy, do victory rolls and be heroes in the school playground.
The Spitfire was our gift to countries fighting totalitarianism regimes, it was Blake's 'bow of burning gold' drawn over 'England's green and pleasant land, a crusader fighting to establish the New Jerusalem upon hills clouded by war. The British people were really fighting for this ideal by the end of WW2 and when Attlee was elected in 1945 we believed it had finally arrived….
Cheers
John

 

[Kryten]

I dunno, but i'm beginning to suspect Readie likes spitfires?

I personally think the Spit and it crews finest hour was in the defence of Malta.
Just think about it 2 years, not weeks or months but years of-
Being hopelessly outnumbered and being left on some days with as few as 4 servicable aircraft, constantly jamming cannons due to dodgy ammo, few spares, bombed out airfields under constant attack, crews and groundstaff malnourished and suffering the Malta dog, not knowing even if you survived your sortie if you could even land safely due to bombs and craters and 109's marauding over your airfields, lack of fuel, messes and barracks in bombed out buildings and houses, no R&R, the only way out was a pair of wings and a harp or being flown out as a casualty!
it goes on and on, I for one am seriously glad it wasn't me!

 

[pbfoot]

Where in the South Pacific or Aleutians or even North Atlantic to the Spit fly

 

[Readie]

Where in the South Pacific or Aleutians or even North Atlantic to the Spit fly

Seafire from carriers.
Spitfire in Burma.
Cheers
John